Collaborative Episode with Kevin Riedl: Web3 from Two Lenses – A Marketer & A Developer's Take | S3 E24

Kevin: 0:01

The main difference or the main development that we have seen in Web3 is that companies now actually need to build businesses.

Joeri: 0:09

Hello everyone, my name is Joeri Billast and this is the Web3 CMO Story podcast. But it's not only my podcast today, it's also Kevin's podcast. Hi, Kevin, how are you?

Kevin: 0:22

Hi mate, great to see you again. Yeah, as my friend here just said, today we are talking about a couple of very interesting topics. and, yeah, happy to be here.

Joeri: 0:32

It's actually for me, Kevin, it's kind of an experiment that we are, you know, recording a podcast episode that will be available on our both channels, so obviously most of the people on your side will not know me, and the other way around. So I would say, Kevin, for my listeners, please introduce yourself a bit.

Kevin: 0:53

Sure thing. Well, I'm Kevin and basically what I do is we have a small Web3 software agency in Austria, mostly working with US, UK, and Swiss companies, and also from Dubai. And yeah, from regular smart contracts, NFTs, to blockchain architecture, stuff to account abstraction, these kinds of things that are also a little bit more complex we are accompanying companies from unicorns to startups to huge corporates along the way, and I would also love to know I think it's also great for our viewers as well if you could introduce yourself as well.

Joeri: 1:29

Yes, thank you, Kevin. So my name is Joeri Billast and, yeah, I met Kevin in Colonial Germany at the Mexico Web3 vision, and actually, I am from the marketing side, while Kevin is more from the technical side. I have a background. Actually, I had an IT company before. I had a business analytics company before, which I sold 10 years ago, and then I went into marketing, at the same time I also had an investment club, and then, you know, I always like to be ahead of the game when technology comes.

Joeri: 2:04

So I was early when big data, data warehousing, this intelligence came when social media marketing came, and now I feel like, with Web3, this all comes together like, and so I like to help companies that are already in Web3 with their marketing but that are, you know, really good in what they are doing with Web2. They have a business that is running fine, but they want to go to the next big thing, which will be Web3. So, yes, I am from the marketing side. I also have a podcast, like Kevin has, which I'm listening to now, and I also have a mastermind, and so, Kevin, you have been a bit longer in the space already than I have. So how have you seen things evolve in the last years in the Web3 space?

Kevin: 2:49

That's a great question. Depends, I think, on where or on how you look at it, but basically, from my humble opinion, what we definitely have seen is the whole space maturing a little bit right. I'm from hype phases, obviously, when prices go up, to a more somewhat useful business and use cases that are now being built or already live in production, and I think that's a great development. What we also see is, from a regulatory standpoint, I would say the main difference or the main development that we have seen in Web3 is that companies now actually need to build businesses. Right. That involves the regulatory standpoint, basically what kind of licenses do I need to launch this or that? But also, how do I generate cash flow? Like, how do I actually survive without investment? Specifically, because it just got much harder to get investments into your startup or for your startup.

Kevin: 3:47

So I think, purely from a financial perspective, companies or startups in rep fee are now forced to actually develop products and services. That somewhat makes sense. Hopefully, and that's the main, let's say, trend I've seen over the last few years that companies, or the whole space in general, matured a lot, right. People don't just buy a random coin that much at scale anymore, as they used to still do it, but not that much. And the same applies to companies that don't just and we see is that don't just jump onto a specific term because they like it and then now try to build solutions around that that actually provide more value than a Web2 solution did before so that's what I've seen but I would be super curious about your point of view as one.

Joeri: 4:39

Yeah, yeah, for me you're for the marketing sites and from the business side. Indeed, today, because we are a bit, you know, behind the hype and there was this hype with NFTs and Bitcoin and you know, to bull market and then so on, and people are just looking to get Money quick, you know, to make money quick and to have, like, sell out the project. You know, just make sure that people are buying something based on hype, but hype it just short term. You don't build a business on a hype, so what after the hype, and so there we are now.

Joeri: 5:13

So I see, as you say, it's more about the business now. It's not when we talk about NFTs, it's not about, yeah, this NFTs gives you access to know. It's really about the value that you get. Okay, you can give access to the community, but then this should be a real community with value in it, access to, for instance, events, and not just, you know, like access to that community or whatever, or just like having a like kind of art, kind of NFT, but it doesn't have any value, because at that time everyone wanted NFT and so people think it holds value but actually it has no utility. So I see more link, or I say, the tendency towards utility towards business for these NFTs. And the same goes actually, yeah, with other Web3 kind of things like Metaverse and so on.

Kevin: 6:04

Are there some utilities you would say that are trending, more working better now than they used to? Or what are projects doing now to obtain market share? What's the move?

Joeri: 6:17

Yeah, the best utilities I see now if we're talking about NFTs, it's loyalty. It's that part of that you can give value for, you know, keeping your customers happy and getting loyal customers and keeping your customers and also loyalty yes, most of us are loyalty is one of the main, I would say, utilities that you can do it and if these and also access to events, access to people, access to memberships, because that everyone can understand if you're in Web2 or Web3, you haven't accessed, you have an entry ticket to something. So these are the two that I've seen and I think bigger brands also will. You will see more and more loyalty programs, wouldn't you think?

Kevin: 6:59

I'm just thinking about all these, starting from airlines, Starbucks, all these companies that are using NFTs under the hood most of the time, and I'm just curious, like what's your point of view from a marketing perspective? Is that something you only see for huge corporates, also for SMEs, you know?

Joeri: 7:22

I see this also happening for smaller businesses, but of course, it's like every time there's a new technology, they're not the first using it, like in the beginning. You know when Web1 came, why would a small business need a website? Web 2 came, why would you be on social media as a business or small business owner? Why would you, you know, have a website that is, you know, compatible with the smartphone, that is responsive, all of that? And now, why would you? Do they do that? So they're asking the questions why now? They are interested by it Because I have an audience that you know is following me, is listening. Okay, this is interesting, but why by now? And that's most of the question.

Joeri: 8:03

And yeah, like I mentioned, they're like membership cards. Imagine going to a fitness, a fitness club with your fitness subscription instead of your paper subscription or paper that you need to show. You know it's on the blockchain, it's an NFT. So, yeah, I see that. What about you? What's your vision about that? Maybe from the technical side, do you think that they are ready, or do we need to have? I would say, do the things need to become a bit less technical and more user- friendly to have more people in Web3?

Kevin: 8:36

That's a great take. Basically, what we see in the space from solutions like account abstraction, which builds the base of force, so called smart wallets, for example, that allows users to, for example, pay for gas or for transactions with their tokens or don't pay any transaction fee at all because someone else covers it, these kind of things, or account recovery, these things are coming right In a decentralized way, in a less decentralized way and in a centralized way. So also, for example, when you can look in with your Google account, just like in Web2, and you are able to use a service. So these UX things or stories already, I think, widely being tested now and already used to a good extent, also feared on off-ramps.

Kevin: 9:26

All these things that cause frictions. And when I'm going back to your questions, if that also may be relevant to SMEs, from a technical standpoint, yes and no, I think, because the yes is for all these solutions that are already out there that you can just use as a small company. But once you need custom software development or custom smart contract, things get really expensive really fast, especially because you need a security audit, someone looking at your code. That's usually 10 to 15k right there, or even more depending on your auditor, right, you want someone who actually knows what they're doing. Blockchain engineers, just like myself, are usually, unfortunately, not that cheap as well More expensive than regular web developers at least right, and that also makes the invoice much higher.

Kevin: 10:16

So, in general, custom software development, custom solutions, I think, are less relevant for at least small companies, but for huge ones, obviously, that's usually the only solution they can do right, because they have unique requirements, unique challenges they need to look at. But yeah, in general, luckily there are a lot of solutions out there that you could use, from third web to all these tools that allow you to develop or deploy projects without a blockchain engineer or just a small fraction of that time. So don't take it to stand point. That would be my take.

Joeri: 10:52

It's a bit like, you know, when in Web 2 you build a website, you can take one of these you know, I would say template websites or work as a whatever and build a website, but of course, it has some disadvantages. It has an advantage because it goes really fast, but of course, you don't have everything in hand. Like maybe it's a bit like the same as with UI. There are solutions that make it easier to create their web 3 solutions, but of course, they don't have like the smart contracts and so on, so it will be something basic. So if you want to go in there and go to the next level, yeah, then maybe it's a good way to onboard people in this first stage, I would say, and then if they want to go further, then they can talk to you and then they can see how can we go farther.

Joeri: 11:34

Because all this the problem also with Web 3 is that people are looking at it, they find it complex, they hear about all these scams that are going on, so they are a bit of afraid of all of that. So that's when I'm talking to Mark and I say what is all of that? And so they are like, even with the wallet, which is like concept that people can understand because they always have also their wallet in their daily life. They don't ask the question if they pay with a credit card, how does it work? But with the wallet now digital wallet they want to know how does it work. So, yeah, if we can make that easier already, then it would be easier to get more and more people on board.

Kevin: 12:13

Yeah, and the main challenge, I think, is always just how many people forget their passwords. A lot still, right, and if your password is worth some money, like in case of crypto wallets, then that's not a great place to be for most people. But, as I said, luckily there are solutions being built around that right now. And just about your website example I think around 20 years ago there were a lot of companies charging 10 grand for a simple website as well. Right, because it was new, because it was not many people were able to do. It had to be built from scratch.

Kevin: 12:52

Oftentimes you had no templates, and we're now coming to a place which is unfortunately not so great for devs like me because you have less work, but it's great for the economy and for companies where you have templates, where you have websites, services, where you can just click and get your solutions, and that's definitely the way right. Yeah, just thinking about that. Are there some of these Web3 marketing solutions that you can just click together, or how it work in general? Is there something comparable in your segment as well?

Joeri: 13:30

Well, what I like to use. I just explained with the access and if the for access, so for my mastermind, but also for my podcast. I have generated a few NFTs myself with AI, of course, with Midjourney, and then, yeah, so what I did was, for instance, in the beginning of the year I did a survey and I asked people if you fill in the survey, then I drop you. I drop you a free NFT which gave you access to the recordings of a mastermind that I did or the access to the results of a survey, some things like that I did through an NFT. But then, of course, people to be able to unlock that video or those results with NFT and after, I use a platform called Uncut and that's really easy for people. People come on the platform. They can create a login with an email address and a password, but on the back end the wallet address is generated and they can use their MetaMask to it. If they want, it can put it in, and so all of that I explained to people once in this basics Web3 basics masterclass. By the way, if people are listening and they are not yet into Web3 space, I want to know about these basics. Just hit me on social media, on Web2, or send me a message, I will give you access. It's about what about digital identity, about NFTs, about Metaverse, and so, yes, this platform Uncut helps me to put out two minutes and NFT, because I meant like, let's say, 10, 20, 30 NFTs and people can claim them, so I can add them, and this is really working well for me. And, yeah, so this is something that marketers like you know, that it looks good and it's not so difficult. Even then, mistakes can happen.

Joeri: 15:17

And one other thing I just mentioned that. So for me, you know, we talked crypto, NFTs, blockchain, but also Metaverse and AI are parts of Web3. In my definition, it's a bit bigger. I also on my podcast, I have these different subjects, and the Metaverse is also something you know, from a marketing perspective, can be really interesting to do stuff there, but still a lot of people don't see themself over there. Now, for one of my clients, we will do a marketing event in the Metaverse. I have already been doing marketing events for marketing communities, which was really fun, and it will be really for a client that hired me, and we will do translation, like if you are speaking German and I'm speaking Dutch and it can be translated directly. And, yeah, it's amazing how much many possibilities we have in these virtual worlds. And I'm wondering because it comes. I don't know if you are a gamer or have been gaming, but Metaverse come from gaming and now there's someone like you with this deaf background to look at the Metaverse.

Kevin: 16:23

Well, I look at the Metaverse usually in from two perspectives, to be honest right from a purely object, other, for me, objective and technical perspective. It's just an improvement, like an iteration of what we had before. Right um to it, will worlds get better, better graphics, more features, more solutions. We have them now, I think, for over 20 years, something like that right, or I don't know, at least 10 years of a second life and all these things we had before and now. Basically, the two main difference differences that we have now is, on one hand, blockchain, where you can actually own things in that metaverse. You have, or actually three things. You have much better AR, VR, XR, and so I can actually immerse yourself much better in these words. And the third thing was well, in in channel, just to use cases get better as well.

Kevin: 17:23

What I think back especially I as an industrial IOT like simulations, not just entertainment or gaming or well it, business, or use cases for technology just enables you to interact with people or in different environments that you possibly just can't interact with right now for whatever reason, or medicine and all these things. Right, you can test operating someone. These are all incredible use cases for the Metaverse, social Metaverse I don't know from a marketing standpoint. I think that's what you're more referring to. I think that's definitely relevant. I'm specially looking at was it called Roblox right, because most yeah so that's definitely coming from my perspective.

Kevin: 18:11

yeah, what do you think?

Joeri: 18:13

Yeah, actually like Roblox, if you call that, it's also metaverse. A lot of people know it. A lot of, you know, children or teenagers know it. And then you and it's funny because they think there is no publicity or brands over there, but it's in a different way. They have, like you know, the Nike world or the Nike room or whatever the brands are.

Joeri: 18:34

And then you have these other metaverses, like Gerlach events like, for instance, the fashion week, and the fashion is something that, yeah, where I see a lot, maybe the most evolution at the moment in this metaverse world, because people can buy digital clothes like teenagers buy skins, so it's a bit of the same, and they just want to do their avatar.

Joeri: 18:54

Yeah, they would just want to look good also in the virtual world and express their identity. And yeah, I see also this other, because metaverse is called these virtual worlds and it depends on how you define it. But I see, like, for instance, now on Microsoft Teams, Microsoft Mesh, you have avatars so you could be in a team smithing If Microsoft invests in this, and you see that they really put this possibility now into teams. And you see that Apple invests in, you know, their VR glasses and you see that Meta is still doing stuff and yeah, so things are moving. Maybe less investors or maybe less visible than before, but I see that the appetite is slowly coming back. That's my feeling, and I don't know how you're feeling is, but that's my feeling at this moment.

Kevin: 19:46

Well, one thing that I could really imagine taking off at some point is less about when you're actually already, you know, in a Zoom call or something like that. It's just a subjective thing. But I personally don't think that that will be an avatar. But what I really think really just personal, right subjective, what I really could very well imagine, is something like what meta I think is doing or trying to do, but you can somewhat scan yourself like you know good quality and get yourself into these worlds, our augmented reality. That's something I could really well imagine, something that is less personal now, could become more immersed, more personal now because we're all getting more isolated, and that would actually bring people closer together again. But that's just, you know, from a developer.

Joeri: 20:42

For me, it's like both exciting and scary. You know that you can do that, like you know being there in these worlds, you see all these possibilities, but it's so new and then you know seeing yourself in the metaverse with, or discussing or with this augmented reality, like people that are so far away that we're like they're sitting next to each other. So, yeah, you see that this is where we're heading. I'm not sure when this will really be mainstream, but sometimes an event can happen and suddenly you know a lot of people are speaking about like AI is already there for some time, but now, with ChatGPT, suddenly everyone is talking about AI. Absolutely. Are you using a lot of AI in your daily life, Kevin?

Kevin: 21:34

Sure, Like most people do, I guess, right Using ChatGPT most of the time, some image generators when they need it, but, you know, or coding assistance. That's more relevant to developers.

Joeri: 21:45

Yeah, that's what I was thinking for coding. Is that helps you right For me? I am also speaking at a few AI events these days and I use a lot of AI, of course, as a marketer, in my daily work like I already mentioned that to generate images with me journey, for instance, but also for my podcast, like we are recording now these podcast episodes. People that are listening. They know that I create show notes, I create an article, I create newsletters. A lot of stuff is linked to this podcast. So you will be there on my site with their links with people are now listening and they want to contact you. They will find that in the show notes, but it is most of the time, AI generated. So for me, it's really a game changer and for a lot of companies it will be too, and sometimes we take everyone is using it, but apparently it's not the case. It depends on the bubble that you are in. Actually so great, kevin. How can people contact you or connect with you?

Kevin: 22:48

Well, I think the easiest way to reach out to us is either with me or to me personally on LinkedIn basically just Kevin Riedl, Rydl, however you want to pronounce it or via our website. We have email. We are on almost all social media channels that you probably use, from Instagram, Tiktok, Twitter or X, all these kinds of things. So wherever you reach out to just search for my name or the company's name and you should find us. Thank you, great. What about you, mate? Where should people like?

Joeri: 23:21

Yeah, so I don't have the most easiest name, but you can also put them in your show notes. So yeah, actually you pronounce it Joeri, because I'm from Belgium, but mostly in people in the US call me Joeri. But yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Obviously, there I am active the most. I publish a lot of posts over there. You can also find my podcast, like yours, actually, my podcast called Web3 CMO Storie and I have my personal blog, which is web drie. Web3.net, which is actually Dutch for Web3, and the domain name was still available, so I have both web drie. Web3.net and web drie. Web3.com.

Kevin: 24:04

Web drie. Web3.com. That sounds expensive, yeah, but I have it, you know.

Joeri: 24:09

And then you know what? It was not available when I bought webdrie. Web3.net, because that was my second best. And then suddenly, I don't know, I realized web drie. Web3.com is available. Oh, let's grab it.

Kevin: 24:20

That's a great one.

Joeri: 24:22

So great man. It was a kind of different podcast episode this time. It was great to have a chat with you, Kevin.

Kevin: 24:29

Likewise. Likewise Will your pleasure to talk with you, mate. Yeah, there's anything I can do for you, not in an agency sense, but just as a person, let me know Happy to do so.

Joeri: 24:39

Me too. Likewise. Awesome Again, an amazing podcast episode, a different one this time, a really special one with two podcast guests hosts. You know a mixture of that. I think it was a nice experiment to do, so. Maybe we do it again in the future, who knows? I would say, if you like this listening to Kevin's podcast at this moment, or to mine, be sure to share it with other people around you that you can take and benefit from this discussion between a dev and a marketing guy. And yeah, I would say, follow us on social media and I would like to see you back in my podcast or in Kevin's podcast episode. Take care Bye. Web3 can take your biz to new heights and you're ready to harness its power, but feeling lost and overwhelmed. Therefore, join my W3X Web3 mastermind. Send me a personal message for more info. You can find me everywhere on social media. There's only one person with my name, Joeri Billast. Talk to you soon.