Revolutionizing Brand Loyalty with Web3: Dominik Karaman's Insights on Blockchain, NFTs, and the New Era of Customer Engagement | S3 E31

Dominik: 1:12

It's like we really need it, or does it really help in terms of loyalty programs? And I think it certainly does. And why do I think so?

Joeri: 1:21

Hello everyone and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast and I'm your podcast host, today I have a guest, I already met him ones in real life. We knew each other from communities. Hi, Dominik, how are you?

Dominik: 1:38

Hi Joeri. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm happy to be here. I'm great and I hope you're too.

Joeri: 1:44

Yeah, we are not complaining, we are good, we are healthy and we are on the podcast. So, guys, who is this guy Dominik? That is Dominik Karaman, that I have as a guest, and he is the founder of Eekigai Labs. He does lots of other stuff too. So, Dominik, before we dive into that the floor is just to introduce you a bit more.

Dominik: 2:08

As you already mentioned, I'm Dom. I'm 32 years old, I'm from Cologne, Germany. I discovered my passion for blockchain I think around eight or nine years by now ago. So, like in this space for a pretty long time, mostly viewed it from an investment standpoint, kind of thing. Yeah, I was right from the start. I was very fascinated with the technology, but I didn't do something with it. It's like for my professional life or my business.

Dominik: 2:31

Fast forward, a couple of years later, the whole NFT Web 3 thing this bubble popped up and it reminded me of my old days, because I was also active in the gaming space when I was younger, so I managed semi-professional eSports teams and it was like the same spirit once again. So just like people coming together like online forums, all like for the NFTs, but it was Discord, just like chatting, getting to know each other because everybody shares like one passion, just coming together spinning up projects. That should be something cool. So that like instantly clicked for me and it really sparked my passion for this whole community thing, which is really the essence of a lot of NFT projects. And then I started to observe a lot of very exciting trends early on. So, for example, I don't like to mention those projects when we talk about the brand landscape. But let's say, like the Bode Bia Club, for example, so this was really a company or a project that was created inside out from the community. So they sold this collection, but it was really a self-motivated thing. So everybody went around, and everybody posted and took their apes as their profile pictures. Some people took their IP they could use, because it was the first time in the NFT history that people were allowed to use the IP from the pictures they were buying. So people just like launch businesses with like eight burgers or like eight tacos, eight coffee, whatever.

Dominik: 3:44

But I thought this concept was extremely interesting. I think it won't. It's like how can I phrase this? So it's, you think, very small if you only apply those concepts to this, like niche, blockchain, Web3 space. But I thought, when you take the essence of those concepts, it could be very interesting also for brands, because I didn't mention this, but I have a background in web design, communication, and marketing. So at some point, I connected the dots and I thought it was very interesting because those concepts can really help brands to create self-motivated communities. So, I tried to connect those two things and this is what I do as my professional. So the start of this year I founded my brand innovation lab called Eekigai. We help Web2 brands leverage emerging and innovative tech, such as Web3, AR, VR, and all the good stuff to create exciting new consumer experiences. Yeah, I have been consulting companies for three years now. Start of this year I launched a lab and I also do plenty of other stuff that I think we will get to later on this podcast.

Joeri: 4:39

Yeah, if you have some time, definitely talk about all that. I think we could talk for ages, but you mentioned it already. We have the Web2 background, the Web3. It's all exciting. You are helping out brands, but of course, the world is evolving, and not everyone already knows what Web3, and so on. So how do you guide those brands to integrate Web3 technologies without actually scaring away their Web2 user base?

Dominik: 5:10

Yeah, it's like complex and you have to consider a lot of angles because there are a lot of different ways people like brands, approach us. So we approach brands. So sometimes they already heard about Web3, they are a bit educated and know what is what it's about in the essence. Some brands don't know anything and they just look for innovative ways to Hatch their consumers alike, to engage their consumers, their customers, in new ways. So it depends on where they come from. Usually, there's a lot of workshopping and a lot of education involved beforehand. So we like to do workshops where we give like a 360- degree perspective on like the whole thing, like this whole package, what's possible, what Web3 is about, what this new aspect of decentralization might mean for brands or, yeah, for like other type of companies, and then we move from there.

Dominik: 5:51

I don't like to artificially advise brands to leverage Web3 technology. I think it's more of like vice- versa step. So you start with what are your current challenges in your company, in your brand? So, are you, do you have challenges to retain your customers, for example? Do you have challenges to grow? And then it's not always Web3 which is the solution. But if it's, then we go to the next step and then we see, okay, like those are your challenges. I think Web3 would be like a good way, a good technology to solve some of those Challenges. And then we go into another round of workshops, so really Having a deep dive into the company essence. How can we translate it to Web3 values? How can we echo that?

Dominik: 6:27

And yeah, then just do a lot of strategizing, workshopping when and then we do draft first concepts and when they resonate with the brand and we also do some testing with MVP pilot projects, let's say, and it really clicks with their consumers, we usually target their most engaged consumer base already.

Dominik: 6:44

We don't roll it out to the like the full company scope, because, yeah, for most companies it's just to be honest it's not worth to risk the brand's image just for creating experiences in a like very niche space, like how many active wallets are there right now? Probably 30,000 NFT traders. So when you think of Nike, for example, and they do great stuff on web3, they have to be very careful that they don't shy away their traditional audience, because it's like much larger, much more significant than this small thing. I think I went a bit like drop, drifted a bit away here from the original question, but yet there's usually how these things go. So it's like a lot of education that we do first concepts, test them, getting something, MVP, ish thing out, yeah, and then we move from there.

Joeri: 7:25

Yeah, no, it's. I think it's very insightful for my audience to hear how you do all that. Of course, the questions or the talking points are just a guideline, Dominik, as you are a podcaster too, I don't know if you can talk give a name of one of those brands that you helped out and how you helped them out, because that's obviously also interesting.

Dominik: 7:47

In terms of names because a lot of products and this is also like a big learning. So for everybody out there who thinks about starting a professional career as a Web3 consultant, advisor or like building actual projects, don't things take much more time than we would expect in the start because you run into so much challenges, stepping stones, especially when the brand is a bit bigger. So I can't tell any names right now because, as I said, we funded the lab at the start of this year. I could tell about some clients that I advise, but I don't think that would be interesting. But I could describe the project and, yeah, doing because they will be released, I think First quarter, second quarter, next year, some of them we are already guiding for almost one year and we still not out with the project. So it takes a lot of time, but I can't describe, like what those projects are about, if you want.

Joeri: 8:28

So yeah, if you can just give some Explanation around what is possible, how it look like, how it work, so that my audience has an idea. And it's interesting that you say this, because I feel the same it takes time and Maybe it's also depends a bit on on the yeah, on the atmosphere, route 3 and so on that we are that it takes more time. But yeah, if you can just, without naming them, explain a bit what kind of stuff that you are doing.

Dominik: 8:59

Yeah for sure. So for one brand is like a bigger brand in Germany. Here they're like centered or originate from Producing audio tails. I don't know, I don't think there's like a real English word for the German. We have the word that everybody grows up listening to those like child audio tails. I grow up with this, listening to this brand myself, so they have a really engaged. Even though those tails are for children, a lot of people at my age they are still like passionate fans of it because they all grew up with it. They listen to it when they go to sleep, so it's just like something like fairy tales, but not really fairy tales, just to briefly describe it.

Dominik: 9:31

So the center, or like really at their heart, they are a storytelling company, so for them it's obviously very interesting and essential to Think about how will storytelling look like in the future when we have all these exciting technologies popping up. So how could we leverage Web 3 for this? How we could leverage AI, VR, like all the stuff, like virtual worlds. We started with Web3, so that we are doing there. We are creating interactive storytelling experiences with their most engaged fans, so with their mature fan base, where, if the first time in the brand's history, the people will have a saying in how, which direction the story will go. So it's like some pivotal moments in this story which the author writes. They can then decide or vote in which way like the story will go, like which characters will appear, on which locations will it play like some minor decisions. They are also okay to decide that will get a collectible, so which basically allows them to participate on this experience. So the collectible is an NFT and with them, with the NFT, they can look into some kind of platform where there are.

Dominik: 10:30

Then we have a line or like a journey of tasks. So we also work a lot with story telling ourselves and pull the user, pull the consumer, inside this experience and then we tell a story for I think like around six or seven chapters. Inside those chapters we have like quest journeys. In those quest journeys they are tasks and tasks could be, for example and I think this is a very exciting concept for all kinds of brands it's always tied to creating like either pulling the consumer deeper into the brand story. So it's a lot of quizzes. There's a lot of like knowledge it has to be acquired to solve some quizzes, some tasks.

Dominik: 11:01

And, on the other side, it produces user- generated content. So, for example, we ask can you post a picture where you listen to our format the most, for example, like in your, or what do you call it? Like in your chair, on your bed, whatever? Just take a picture, post on instagram, tag it and then our platform, which we are also developing on the side, will then recognize that the user posted it, that detect the company and you will acquire points. Without points, you can then vote for pivotal moments in the story and where the direction will go and you can give more weight to a thing.

Dominik: 11:29

So it's basically for everyone is like when? So the? So the consumer. They have a saying in the story, the brand they get like user- generated content. They can hook the audience deeper into the brand story. They can create social media engagement, which is also very essential. And, yeah, for the user, as I said, they can decide on some moments in the story. They're also the, the collectible that they get. It will evolve over time.

Dominik: 11:48

So, with every major decision, the nft is a dynamic nft.

Dominik: 11:52

It gets updated and reflects the decision that they made with their voting power and in the end, they get only this segmented audience.

Dominik: 12:00

They get this audio tail as like a digital format.

Dominik: 12:03

They also get the script from the author.

Dominik: 12:05

So it's just like a very fan- engaging love brand experience kind of thing when you can then really connect deeply to your consumers and then for your brand just to say how valuable this is. Then you have basically, after this experience, you have a very distilled audience. So the people who are there, who took part in the whole experience, those are like really your brand fans and then you can do first- hand market research right, so you can talk to your consumers much more directly than you could on social media. You can ask which next product should release and, as I said, as we target mature, like sometimes they are parents themselves and they buy the product from the old audio child's brands for their kids and I think this is like a very good way into tapping into this like customer base and getting their opinion, their feedback, so you can craft your products around the direct feedback that you get, and I think it's a very once in a lifetime chance for brands to connect deeper with the audience. Yeah, I hope they make sense.

Joeri: 12:56

It makes a lot of sense, like the fact that these traditional techniques like storytelling, that they make a lot of sense to In Web3. Other ones like building community, like loyalty, all of that. Web3 offers a lot of possibilities there. Can you talk a bit about loyalty programs? How, in general, do you see this functioning in Web3?

Dominik: 13:19

Yeah, that's another big topic. I think there's a lot of debate going on. Is this, like Web 3, really needed or does it really help in terms of loyalty programs? And I think it certainly does, and why do I think so?

Dominik: 13:31

I like to view Web 3 or like to talk about Web 3, not only from technical perspective. Obviously, we have the blockchain and it enables us to take advantage of some things like decentralization and transparency and all that, but what it really also is, it's like a new form of communication. So for me, it's like a model back from, or like away from top down to the bottom up, from like one too many conversation where brands just like spills messages out on social media to their fans. It's a many too many conversation. So it's really like building community, creating this dialogue. And now I lost a bit track where you were like oh, yeah, loyalty okay, and I also. Well, also as up to this is, it goes away from like those siloed programs where we talk about loyalty programs that always happen in brand silos. So it's just like this closed app or whatever.

Dominik: 14:20

I was with Web 3. We then have the possibility to create ecosystems and networks. So, because the blockchain is openly readable by everyone. Basically, everybody could build on top of the loyalty program without even having to ask the originator of this program. So let's just make a simple example. Tell me one thing that you'd like to consume. I just saw you drank coffee, for example.

Joeri: 14:41

For instance, I also like to watch sports on television, for instance. Obviously, I'm from Belgium, so I like to watch soccer. I don't know if that makes sense, but actually, yeah, I like to drink my coffee also, if that's an easier example.

Dominik: 14:55

We could also stick with the sports one, so like football. Okay. So let's say like you're a fan and then you're part of, let's say, your favorite club has a loyalty program for their fans and it issues NFTs as some kind of rewards or like just to reflect different loyalty levels or just as a reward could be anything basically. Or let's say it would reflect the different statuses inside a loyalty program. So usually in a loyalty program we have different statuses, or membership status Could be like silver, gold, platinum, whatever. And let's say you reach a platinum level at your favorite soccer club, right? So you're like a very engaged fan. You have platinum level. And then when you would be a company that I don't know produces something that you would like probably footballs or clothing for football or whatever, like everything that goes well with the audience you're trying to tap into, they could then just say, hey, everybody who's like a platinum, I have this platinum token NFT at their favorite football club. They could get like discounts at our store. So people like other companies, they could tap into this loyalty program built on top and it's a double value. So for the brand that originates, or like the soccer club that originates or like spins up this program. They have other people who can just like chime in and build on top of it and the brand who issued the rewards that I just talked about. They could just like very focused, tap into a new audience or like into a very centered, focused consumer audience where they know that they probably appreciate the products that they offer.

Dominik: 16:17

Let's make a very much more simple example.

Dominik: 16:19

Okay, let's say every Netflix subscription would be run or would be reflected by an NFT, right?

Dominik: 16:24

So you would purchase an NFT, you have to pay it monthly and then you log into Netflix and it recognizes, you have this NFT, so you get access. So now I am a company who would produce like a popcorn company, for example, so just like snacks that go well with Roger Netflix, they could just say, hey, you are part of Netflix, you have a Netflix NFT, use this to log into our platform to verify that you are a Netflix subscription user and then you can get like 20% discount for us next to watch when you watch Netflix, for example. And I think this creates a very it's at a very early stage, but I think the possibilities just like talking about those two very simple examples, even though they might sound a bit complicated because I'm talking left and right. It's just so many possibilities and I think it really opens up a real new era of like brand ecosystems, networks that can work together and not happen in those titles. To make it a bit more short and concise, yeah, no, I love that.

Joeri: 17:14

All those examples that people see every day life and they see that this technology can help. It's not for the sake of Web3, but it's like there are possibilities with this new technology that can help brands and can define new experiences.

Dominik: 17:29

And you wanted to add this super, super important, because this is what I really like, not dislike about the space. But I think what a lot of people get wrong. Because I think blockchain is tied to such strong values, right? So most people who are in the space they're in there for, for the values it reflects like they want to have a decentralized, self sovereign world where everybody's their own custodian, and so they have this like concept of blockchain. They try just to plot it on everything that they can think of and it not always makes sense.

Dominik: 17:58

So we always have to see which problems can it really solve, which value can it really bring for consumers, brands, companies, and only then, and just only then, it will work, because otherwise nobody's interested in the tech. Like when you just take the, take the subway or something, don't talk to people. Do you know NFTs? Are you interested in NFTs? Are you interested in crypto? They probably look at you like car what the fuck is this guy you want from me? And nobody's interested, right? So they just want to have. Everybody's just asking what's in for me, and I think we should put in the forefront and not this is like new, exciting technology, use it.

Joeri: 18:30

So this is what you can get from it, and that's exactly where we can reach mass adoption, exactly, and membership cards or loyalty card or something like this, which happens to be on the blockchain, but that's not what it is about. It's the membership card that makes sense, which is immutable, and so on.

Dominik: 18:46

And you also ask sorry to keep this conversation going, but you ask how you do make this accessible for, like the regular user and we also do that by the tech is put behind the curtains right. So from the user perspective, it's your regular web to traditional, smooth user experience. We are locked into online platforms. You use your Google, for example, as like a single sign on servers and you, in best case, you don't even recognize or you don't even feel that you are interacting with blockchain technology. It should just feel like the regular website, regular app. Nobody want to have this headache. Setting up a wallet, taking care of the seed phrase is just like way too much responsibility for most people. So just want to have a nice experience, few clicks as possible, and this you can also do when you put the tech really in the background. Yeah, that's a loud thing. What does it say?

Joeri: 19:30

No, no, it totally makes sense. It's a new technology, it's now. We don't ask ourselves any question if we pay with our credit card. We don't wondering what is the tech happening behind that when we are visiting a website or when you ordering online or paying online, we are not wondering. So at this moment it's still early and we are not talking about the tech behind that how exactly we don't talk about, when we visit a website, that actually it's an IP address that we are visiting. So we are. So actually we are going the same kind of world. People should, like you say, with mass adoption, you should not talk about the tech. But okay, that happens to be the basis of it. So, dominic, I will mention it in the beginning you do a lot of stuff and there is also this concept proof of donation, concepts and I think you work. Is it a company or is it? It's called a drop. Maybe you can explain yourself what it is.

Dominik: 20:30

It's a company, is called a drop. It's a nonprofit organization officially registered in Germany. So we are the first web three nonprofit in Germany so we can legally take crypto donations and then we can offer them to certified partners, like to certified nonprofit organizations. So we basically, at the first time in Germany, we open up the possibility to donate in crypto. This is, in first instance, semi interesting, so it was cool because, as you might know, germany we are very strict with regulatory hurdles. We are very strict with, like, tax regulations, so it was really like a milestone from our founder to get this approved. So I'm not the founder of this project, I'm just like helping to help him to build this. And what we issue there as a donation certificate is called the proof of donation. So it's like a digital donation certificate which is a soulbound NFC, which basically allows you then to log into the app, like an app online, and claim your real physical donation certificate, which you can then use to, for example, offset taxes or whatever you want to do with it. This is it at first instance.

Dominik: 21:31

In the long run, like, the greater vision is to really leverage blockchain, because we talked about decentralized, immutable, transparent, and I think those are all value steps. That is really needed in the donation space, because I think one of the biggest issues is so donors the largest donor base there are, on average, I think, 70 plus years old. So this is really where the big money comes from in terms of donations, and this might sound a bit cruel, but they're going to die somewhat soon. So, like this generation will be gone at some point. And the new generations? They are much different than you have to talk to them in a very different way and they're much more skeptic. For example, for when you think about the 80 years old person, they still get letters in the post it's called post in English Like when you send letters right, yeah, in a mail, in a post yeah, mail.

Dominik: 22:19

Okay. So in the mail they're like black children with their hands open, like begging for money. So this is like the old way how donation marketing basically was done, and nowadays, like when we talk about Gen Z, Gen Alpha and everything, so they are much more scrutinizing and they're asking, like, where does the money go, how much of the money does really arrive and where can I check this? So do I have to trust this entity? Now? And this was like for me, for example, I would love to donate more, but I can never be really sure, never really certain, that the money will really alive. So this is like the greater vision is making donations more transparent through this proof of donation token and bringing like the whole process end to end on the blockchain, so you as a donor can really verify what has been done with the money that I donated. And this also creates, then again, a real, really deeper connection from the non-profit and the donor and they can get much more into dialogue because they feel much closer. So it feels much more authentic and I think it's very needed in the nation space On top, we are now building a loyalty kind of program around this token. So we are working with brands because and this is also very interesting and this goes back to what I told before so because the blockchain can be read by anyone openly and publicly, it's possible also for brands to say hey, you donated for this course. So, for example, yes, this is month for men probably a bad example because I'm a man, so I hope nobody attacks me here but there's like this November thing, which is like a mental health month for for men, for example. And then we think about the brand perspective and you are a brand who tells I don't know some men related stuff shaving cream, razors to shave, something that's like really mad related. You can say, okay, for everybody who donated for this course, like for mental health, for example, at the, at the November month, you could leverage this for marketing, marketing campaign and then say everybody who donated for from for this course and you verify on our platform through the token that reflects the digital proof of the nation. You can then get also discounts and our platform so they can also tap into a very when you donate and it's like openly visible, it's how do you call it? You are liquid in terms of money. So mostly people who donate, they have a bit too much money so they can afford to give it away.

Dominik: 24:29

So it creates also this like positive flywheel for both sides where brands can tap into audiences. They can do something good. They can say we do something good for people who did good, so really doing good for people who did good. And yeah, they were like this is very early, but they were also creating some kind of loyalty program at the moment, which creates this positive flywheel, so donors get incentivized to donate because at one point, they know it's transparent, they know where the money goes.

Dominik: 24:55

I want to do something good, obviously. At the same time, they can then make use of benefits that they can claim at the brands that we work with. And the most important thing here and then I'm done because this was not possible before, because it's illegal to advertise that or like to incentivize people to donate when you offer them benefits. So it's very illegal to say, hey, when you donate, you get this. But, as I said, as the brand doesn't even really have to ask us if they can offer this and we don't have to communicate it, they can communicate it themselves and they can read this in just like public, immutable database, which is the blockchain, and they can just like self-motivated spin up those benefits for the donors. But it wasn't just possible. If you want, this was really a case where blockchain solves an issue in the industry.

Joeri: 25:38

Yeah, it's wonderful to hear all of that, that people see that there are really good applications that are happening in the space, because it's not always easy to know what is really happening and what are stories. And now you explain all of that. Thank you, dominic, for mentioning all of that. But of course, like always with new technologies, they are brands, bigger companies, also smaller companies, listening and thinking should we really dive into web three, should we really look at it? Or they are hesitating. What would you say to them as advice or to get them over the fence to start their journey in Web3?

Dominik: 26:20

Are you particularly talking about, like rather smaller brands, right?

Joeri: 26:23

It can be like I know that the bigger brands, that they're already looking to that. I know that you're working with those brands, but if you would have advice, it can be for brands but also for, like, smaller brands that are more hesitant. What would you say to them?

Dominik: 26:40

I would just say don't overthink it, don't try to think about holistic concepts right from the start. I would start with I have something that I wrote about one time. It's called the OODA loop, which is basically like you get in, you observe, so you take a battery distance, look at the space, like what is going on there, which values are accurate? Does it probably resonate with our brand fellows or does it not? So is it probably not even interesting to to exist there? And then, when you have this understanding, then you can orientate, so you can see, like how would our brand fit into this, like landscape, what would be a very natural way, how to approach things, and then you basically spin up a lot of options that you can tap into. It's like very broadly explained right now. And then there comes a decision phase. So the D there's where we evaluate, like which of the, which of the incentives that we could bring to the table does do really make sense or just retesting, get feedback from internal teams, different departments, how big like your company might be at the moment, and then it's about acting. So, obviously, implementing this strategy, you should probably work with experiences, experienced agencies, or take a deep look at, like other brands who already spun up initiatives and then just move from there and continue the loop. So always like retest, doesn't really make sense what we are doing, do we really fit in there? But this was like, again, very broadly explained what I would really do.

Dominik: 27:59

Or like really advice take like this first step. Just try to operate in a space. Set up your first wallet, maybe give some poor apps for people who attend, who attend events from your brand. So just like, really try things out, see how your audience reacts to it. Don't overthink it. Do the minimal step and don't try to craft a holistic concept right from the start, because I think, especially for smaller brands, it can give advantages.

Dominik: 28:22

But the reason why we only are more and more, or the majority we see, are like very big brands because they have money to burn so they can really experiment at scale. And we see Nike they release like either really segmented, like this one audience, so they have this like dot swoosh program, for example, where they try their concepts out on a very segmented and focused user base and they don't advertise it like on their main website or anything. So they have this capacity to work like with this like small, distilled audience. So yeah, I just drifted away again there. Keep it short and concise. Just start, try yourself out, don't overthink it. Make a first step, play with the technology, see how your audience reacts, and then move from there and always take a step back and then get feedback and then iterate based on that.

Joeri: 29:07

That would be much easier. Indeed, it's like with lots of two things that start small but things big, like they say and, just like you say, iterate from there. Dominik, it was really a pleasure to have you on the show today, but if people now they are now listening and they say, ok, we want to connect with Dominik, they want to know more about you, about everything that you're doing, where would you like to send them?

Dominik: 29:32

The best place to reach me, I guess, is on LinkedIn right now. So just approach me directly. I think my LinkedIn is called slash dom minus karaman. Otherwise, if you are a brand or something, just feel free to visit our website eekigai. xyz Just the name that you see in the picture. For me right now, just this like brand name with equity at the end. And yeah, just like directly. Talk to me. I'm a very approachable guy. I love to have conversations about all the topics as we just they were just brought up. So, yeah, feel free, don't take me.

Joeri: 30:01

Yes, we will have what you just mentioned, Dominik. We will also put it in the show notes, all your links, so if people are now listening, it's easy to find them over there. There is also a blog article for this episode that you can find on web drie. web3.net, which is actually web3.net, but then in Dutch. So again, I got that. Yeah, thanks, Dominik.

Dominik: 30:24

Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. I hope I didn't overcomplicate things here. I just get very excited when I talk about those topics. It's really my passion and I hope the audience could take away something valuable and actionable from it. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Joeri: 30:37

Yes, I'm sure they have, and I also like this passion and it really did. What people, what my audience likes and guys if you're now listening and you also feel the passion that Dominik has and you think about what this guy said, it can be really useful for people around me. Yeah, just send them a link to the podcast episode to the blog article. Sharing is caring, as we say. Also, if you're not yet subscribed to the Web3 CMO stories podcast, this is a good moment to do that. By the way, Dominik also has a podcast which will be mentioned in the show notes and, of course, I would like to see you back next time, take care.