Harmonizing Web3: A Musical NFT Odyssey with Catherine Gairard | S3 E51

Catherine: 1:09

You can have infinite plays and infinite downloads. That's why streaming has lowered the value of music so much. You can have a unique piece with a visual and then you can sell that for whatever you want, depending on how big your brand is and how your fans and your weight on the community.

Joeri: 1:31

Hello everyone and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories Podcast. My name is Joeri Billast and I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really honored to be joined by Catherine. Catherine, how are you?

Catherine: 1:46

Hello there, Joeri, I'm great. How about you?

Joeri: 1:51

Yeah, I had already a busy day, but always when I can record a podcast, I meet new people. I'm really happy. So, guys, if you don't know Catherine Gairard I try to pronounce it in the French way because we both speak French too. Catherine is a multi-phased artist, composer, harpist and a model with a passion for creating and sharing a musical journey, and so I was in touch with her and I heard about everything that she's doing in the NFT space, so I was really curious to know more about. But yes, Catherine, to start explain us a bit how your journey went from a self-taught musician Peru, I think you are to an NFT artist.

Catherine: 2:41

I was born in Peru and my father is French. My mom is Peruvian, so I have both. I am both French and Peruvian and at the beginning, like I always knew, I wanted to do music. But at the beginning we were living very far away from the city and we couldn't afford classes they were quite expensive at the time. So I had to wait till I traveled to Europe and started studying in the university, and at some point I decided to change paths.

Catherine: 3:13

With what was I doing at the moment, and when I took the decision to pursue music, I didn't have any money either, because I was a student. So internet saved my life. I found so many free courses in platforms like Coursera, for example. I started learning the basics, also invested in a book, which is very funny. It's called Music Theory for Dummies. I love that collection. You can learn anything and it's explained in very simple terms, and especially with music. That's very important because for some reason, in music they take very simple concepts and they start tangling them and making them more complicated than they actually are. And this music is already complex enough. Why are you making it so ethereal that many people don't understand and then they end up quitting? So instead, I was in the conservatory doing sulfes and I had that problem. They were going too fast, I wouldn't understand anything. And so I decided to buy that book and to say I will study the way I know how to study, which is with books and concepts and theory, and understand things on my own rhythm. And that's when I started there. And then in life will you progress. The conditions get better and with time, I was able to.

Catherine: 4:37

When I moved to Spain, I started with particular lessons for private lessons for singing first, and then I added the instruments and then, in 2020, when the pandemic started, I decided to go all in and launch my career, because I had some songs written, but I was not confident enough about showing them to the world. But during the pandemic, it was like okay, we cannot take anything for granted, Things happen and you need to live now and do things now. So I took LinkedIn. I started looking for people to work with, I found a producer. We released that first EP. That is on YouTube and Spotify and everywhere in all platforms that you have. And then I had to keep going because one problem is that monetization. Okay, the album was out there. Now what do we do to actually monetize on that and all the normal traditional outcomes weren't really satisfactory to me. Do concerts, but that's also put more money on it and who knows if you are going to recover that.

Catherine: 5:51

I was in Spain. Most of my fans are in Mexico and South America. Even though I was in Spain, doing a concert in Spain didn't make any sense, especially for such a small community that I had at the moment. So I kept researching. The labels are not an option for me. I prefer staying independent, at least in this phase of my journey. Or many people might not know, but labels tend to be very unfair to especially big labels, to musicians, and you have to be very careful and know the business really well before even considering signing with one of them.

Catherine: 6:35

And then so I kept searching and then I found about the NFTs and it's hard for me to comprehend all the cryptocurrency world. I have a very basic knowledge about everything blockchain, but basically not to understand what it is about in very simple terms. But I'm not an expert. But as an artist I saw the value on the NFTs because it's really saying that particular piece that is registered in the blockchain and is unchangeable is stating that this is like the original piece Like having a Mona Lisa or a picture of the Mona Lisa doesn't have the same value because you can have plenty copies, but you cannot have the Mona Lisa.

Catherine: 7:21

So it's the same idea in a digital realm. You have the NFT that is registered in the blockchain with a number right With that particular trace, and then you have the JPEGs. The naysayers of the NFTs are always like oh, but look, I have a JPEG. I just did a screenshot and it's like yeah, but your screenshot is worth zero because you can have infinite copies of that screenshot, but you cannot have infinite copies of my token that is registered in the blockchain with that number right. So that means that, instead of having 0.004 cents per play, because again, there's only one, mona Lisa.

Catherine: 8:13

By a genius that has changed completely the art history, etc. Etc. And also as an inventor that did so many things, so such an important figure in history, in human history. So obviously it's worth millions. So that's the branding right. If Da Vinci was alive today, that would be his branding. So the stronger your branding, the more value your pieces will have in the market.

Joeri: 8:43

Yeah, and so how do you do it? Do you have unique pieces? Are they like on the blockchain? Are they one? Or do you have different NFTs with different numbers for the same piece? So multiple versions. So how does that work?

Catherine: 9:02

So my first experiment was taking one of my songs, which is Guerra odi dolor, war, hate and Sorrow would be the English translation and I took that one with just a picture of the album and I did 10 copies of it just to try what would happen, and I used mean songs, which ended up really bad. This platform just disappeared from nowhere. It went away, and that was my first experiment and I managed to do a sold out just by being on Twitter spaces telling what I'm doing, showing my music, etc. And then there was a contest that they did live on Twitter spaces as well, and I just went with another song that is not even produced yet, that I sang with Harp, and I won that contest. So that was my first experiences with that. So obviously I had to start learning how at least how to have a wallet right, how to exchange, how to buy and sell different coins, like what's better doing it on Ethereum, blockchain or Solana or.

Joeri: 10:18

How did you learn? Because you have more an artistic, I would say brain.

Catherine: 10:23

Oh, my God. No, it was hard, because all the technical it's not that you cannot do it. I believe that you have more skills in things because you have spent more time perfecting that skill. For example, if I'm very creative, it's because I spent literally my whole life perfecting on that, because I love creating in general. But if I would have perfecting the skill in mathematics and numbers and science and logical thinking, then I would be very good at that as well. And so you need to have a balance between both, because you need. You cannot be just in the clouds, like I said, for example, with the label, if you are not logical and you read the contract from beginning to end and then search for a specialized lawyer that can read that for you and tell you if everything is right or not. And you need to have your share of knowledge on copywriting, author rights, etc. Because it's very easy for them to be.

Joeri: 11:34

Yeah that's a lot. Actually, it's not only about the song, but understanding this Web3. I also feel that you have this audience of maybe pure fans that like the music, but also fans that you find on Twitter X. Maybe you also said you were using LinkedIn. Those are not directly the platforms that I would connect with music or artists. I would rather think maybe YouTube or Instagram, but I see it takes a lot of time and investment for you to be there. Probably you also stand out. So if there are so many people that are doing what you do beyond Twitter spaces with music.

Catherine: 12:11

There's very little metal rock in that community. When I was doing it one full time, I just found one guitarist that does heavy metal, not even like I do it, because I tend to go more towards symphonic metals, even cinematic type of music. He is like heavy metal, almost progressive different directions in within metal and the rest they go more. There's a lot of pop, a lot of electronic, a lot of trap as well, and that's interesting because then as soon as they hear your thing, it's like, wow, it's completely different.

Catherine: 12:54

But I have to say I used to be not a fan of trap at all and it's not the type of music that I would listen to out of nowhere. But I found really good ones in the NFT community, like with real lyrics and with deep meaning. All that is urban music, really Fusion of hip hop. It's not my expertise those genres. But yeah, I found in general a lot of good music in there.

Joeri: 13:28

See, and it's a certain of course. Not everyone is on Twitter, not everyone is in Web3, so you have an audience that likes music too. Maybe they find you on YouTube and so on. So you have different groups, but some of the music is not available for this, or they can listen to it, but they cannot own it. And do you have a problem to explain them? Is it not an obstacle for your fans to get this NFT, because they don't understand it?

Catherine: 13:55

That used to be a problem. Let's say two years ago that you would be really into the community that over the understood was starting to understand the whole idea behind. But now you can even buy NFTs with your credit card. So it's like the system does everything for you. You just have the wallet, etc, but you do it with your credit card. So now it's a different story. That's a great progress, because now you can open up and there's so many possibilities that you can offer with the NFT, because the NFT could be like the piece itself, but it could be also that there's a ticket for a contract, for example, and so people go with their NFT and it's interesting because it's a ticket. It doesn't have any value anymore once the concert is done. Keep it as a souvenir, but that's it. But with an NFT, okay, it's the ticket for the concert, but after the concert you are still keeping the piece that has some value, which is interesting.

Joeri: 15:02

It's interesting and you could even afterwards give something to those people, everyone who went to that event. Maybe you do a draw and they can win a prize, or they can win a meet and greet, or they can. You can do stuff with that and those people can prove that they were there. Yeah, I love that that it's not only about collecting, but also about other benefits.

Catherine: 15:24

You can do that as well. You can, for example, if you're a visual artist, maybe you can give like the actual painting or a printing of your thing. You can, as a musician, you can do the album, or you can do, you can record the concert. There's a lot of those in the classic bands. They have X album, x place, 1990, something, x year, and that's like some DVD that you can buy actually and relieve the concert. So you could also give that away to people who have bought the NFT. Let's say the NFT is 300. I don't know, I don't think I don't know if there will be an artist that might be able to charge 300 for a concert, maybe in a VIP pass, some very big ones. But you could even charge more because the NFT has a lifetime value and so they get all those perks, even be part of the sort of a fan club or something, and everyone wins because the fans get more and you can charge more as well. So that's interesting.

Joeri: 16:39

Indeed. So it's a lot of benefits, but I also can imagine that for people listening. So how does it work? Because you are recording, you're making a piece of music song and then, at a certain moment, people can buy it. So what are the steps that you do after you created the music and until that people can buy it?

Catherine: 17:03

I try to share the process as much as possible, which is hard for me, particularly because there's many musicians who can just put themselves live, for example, and make beats live, and so people can see the whole process. For me that's difficult because I'm there talking to myself, trying to figure out things at the same time. Again, I used to not be that technical and now I have to, because if I want to know how to use Logic Pro and mix my stuff, I need to have that side as well developed. So to me it's hard to do that, because it's such an intimate place for me to start creating that it's hard for me to share that. But I try to do it at least indirectly, like through pictures, to say, okay, I stop for a moment, I do a video, I talk a little bit and then I keep going on my eyes.

Joeri: 18:04

And the Web3 part of it, the NFT part of it. Once you have it, how do you put it? Or do you create NFT and where? Because you mentioned the credit card. So you need to have a platform that is user-friendly. So how does that work?

Catherine: 18:17

When I now I'm working on a collection that is going to be like a series of one-on-one collections collection but one-on-one pieces, so it's like a group of unique pieces, different.

Catherine: 18:29

That is going to be called harp dreams, so it's just with the harp and maybe some voice and some mild accompaniment, but the main thing would be the harp and it's going to be very little pieces, like less than one minute, with a visual that goes with it. And for now I'm not that active on the community because I don't have anything to show in that sense. And it's been so crazy these last two years. So many things changed in my life, so that took more time than I would have like it to take, but for now they will be on foundation, which is a platform. It's on Ethereum, I think, yes, and I don't know if they have the credit card, but I know there are other platforms that I don't have the name right now, but I will do my research so I can also have that feature and can bre ages up to do my research. Thank you for your time.

Joeri: 19:30

Yeah, I have been also looking at different platforms, like one platform I used myself to create NFTs and to put NFTs I say sell NFTs was uncut. They started as a podcast NFT platform and now they do this for artists. But there are others and I like indeed the fact that you can use a credit card because that makes it easier for people. So what I've been using to create, if you can call that art, is AI and I'm wondering are you using in everything that you're doing, because AI is everywhere? Are you using AI?

Catherine: 20:05

Yeah, I found for music, since I am a musician it is a bit boring to use AI because it generates everything for you. I'm not saying that cannot be interesting, because you could, for example, on Logic you have, and I guess on other DAWs as well, you can have loops of guitars, percussion, everything, and then you put those loops together like a puzzle and you have a song. And I've been experimenting a little bit with that lately just for fun not as bad as my main music. But let's say there's something very particular that you want to have and you don't have it. You could generate that and it's just that piece and then you put it inside your whole thing. It's not like the AI is going to do the whole work for you.

Catherine: 20:57

So that's one. Then, second, it could generate complete songs. If you are not a musician let's say a content creator or something and you need music and you don't have the budget to hire someone, then why not? It's a great tool. I think it democratizes content creation a lot. The same, if you are not good at drawing and you are starting with your music and you need a visual, then generate something on AI and you'll have your album cover art. Why Over complicated? But I think it's important to keep your art so, if you're a musician, your music, if you are an illustrator, your illustrations as organic as possible. That's just my view, because this is going to evolve so fast and it's going to become better and better at generating stuff. So at some point, anyone will be able to do AI and I believe I want to believe that those who still have the skill that will have much more value. You know what I mean If everything is done by AI.

Joeri: 22:09

No, you just need to do everything that I'm doing. I try to ask AI like a help, like an assistant, or just add some pieces or make it go faster, or give me some ideas. So, like the same with the podcast that we are recording now, AI will create an article, a blog article about it, but it's not invented, it's everything that we have been but actually you have been saying, which will just be reproduced in a way.

Catherine: 22:36

So, yes, that's another great tool, like for everything, website text or marketing strategy ideas. Also, another way I use chat GPT for getting ideas is, for example, I have a secondary YouTube channel that's nothing to do with music, is about clothes and stuff, but I use it as another excuse to create music that is would be completely different to what I'm normally doing. That's why I was also experimenting with the loops thing, et cetera. And one great tool is okay, I don't know how where to start and I need ambience music for this atmosphere, like it's party music, let's say. But I is has to be ambience because I'm doing a voice over over it.

Catherine: 23:30

You ask chat GPT, I want to do this. Can you give me some advice on what key to use, what tempo, what instruments, et cetera? What genre can I borrow from to do that? And it gives you everything. Say, oh, you can try G major, for example, and then you do those instruments and you can search on electronic music house or whatever and just keep it in these temples so it doesn't distract from your speaking, blah, blah, blah. So that's a very interesting actually, because it's like asking to a teacher or to a musician friend ideas, but it's just the ideas, it's not writing anything for you, it's just telling you you could start here, and then maybe I start in G major and then I find another idea that is in C minor that I like more and I just go for it. But I have something to lean on when there's really nothing coming.

Joeri: 24:27

Exactly For my podcast, like the title of a podcast. So such a chip he can come up with titles that I was not thinking about and maybe I tune it a bit, or stuff like that. The software that we are using now to record the episode is also with AI podcast, so I can use it to to get rid of if there are some problems with the sound or stuff like that. Add in some music, like I do this now with podcast, which is really great. That AI can help with that, Just, and I just need to see the results is fine or not for me, but it's a great help. You also mentioned you have a YouTube channel. Is that? Is YouTube the place where you are active by the most active with your content, or where can people find your content if, or your music if they want to find it?

Catherine: 25:17

Yeah, and on Instagram and YouTube, mainly yes, and Twitter those three are the main ones.

Joeri: 25:26

So on the Twitter spaces, just to understand how that works. So are you playing music or are you talking on those Twitter spaces?

Catherine: 25:36

Yeah, so those spaces work. There's generally like some big accounts and host spaces, but in this all sizes of accounts can host spaces and there's it's like you create, you grow audience by hosting and being on spaces I'm mostly being on spaces and then you ask for the mic. So you have a stage, quote unquote, and you ask for the mic and they always let you speak, because it's about that. It's not only about you, it's about exchanging ideas and depending on what the topic of the space is, because sometimes it's like a general topic. So you don't go there to promote yourself, you go to give it more value, to bring value to the community and others are actually, for there are collectors looking for things, so you can go there and actually promote what your project is about, et cetera, where to find it. So it's different and you just have to be a little bit brave to go and the good thing, is.

Catherine: 26:46

It's all audio, so it's not with video. So you don't have to worry about. I have to be pretty, I have to be well dressed. You can be there on your pyjamas and then start playing your harp from the phone. I didn't have some. Do have all the setup. I was a bit lazy, I just went.

Joeri: 27:09

Yeah, but it's worked. I was all quite active on Clubhouse and then doing several Twitter spaces. I was also very active on LinkedIn. So you are active on different platforms for different reasons. So if people want to find out more about your Catherine and they want to follow you, or they want to know where they can find your music, where would you like to send them and you can give all the URLs. I will put them in the show notes afterwards.

Catherine: 27:38

I would say the main one is YouTube, because there are the four songs plus the cover, a cover that I did of a Spanish band, and they can see the to the animation that I created for the videos. So I would say the more complete experience will be there for sure.

Joeri: 28:01

Okay, and how can people find you on YouTube? Do they just search on your name?

Catherine: 28:08

Yes the same.

Joeri: 28:10

Okay, for sure I put this in the show notes. Like I said, there is an article, there is show notes. If you have people that are listening in the car, they can check it out. So yes, katerin, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to hear your story.

Catherine: 28:23

Thank you very much for having me here.

Joeri: 28:27

Guys, again a really interesting subject now with an artist. Yeah, Web3 has so much in store for everyone, and if you think that this episode was really interesting for people around you, be sure to share the episode with them. If you are not yet subscribed, this is a really good moment to do this. And did you want to add something, Catherine?

Catherine: 28:52

Yes, I wanted to say because there's many artists that still don't dare to go into the NFT world because they find it complicated or they cannot understand it or they think they have to be experts in cryptocurrency to be there. I am not an expert on cryptocurrency and yet I am doing things in the NFT community. It's a very welcoming community. If there's anyone who's listening to me right now and was thinking about getting in there and showing their art and monetizing it through this way, I totally encourage you to do it, because it's a really amazing community and everyone is there to help. There are so many other artists and if you are new, they really welcome you with open arms and teach you and explain to you. You can reach out to the people on Twitter and they explain to you and you'll learn on the go, so definitely it's something worth trying.

Joeri: 29:50

Okay, thank you so much for adding that. That's a really good, inspirational message to end this podcast with Guys. Yeah, as I said, if you're not yet subscribed, please do it, and, of course, I would like to see you back next time. Take care.