Olivia: 0:00

I think in 2021,. I joined a private investment company and that private investment company is into very interesting kind of projects, so a lot of alternative asset projects like crypto, obviously, but like quantum computing, carbon neutrality, alternative protein, like those kind of really interesting projects. So I joined in as director of marketing to just oversee his communications and marketing and process group.

Joeri: 0:34

Hello everyone and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories Podcast, season 3, episode 17. My name is Joeri Billast and I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really happy to be joined by Olivia. Olivia, how are you?

Olivia: 0:52

I'm good, thanks. Hi, Joeri. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on your show.

Joeri: 0:58

Yeah, I'm really excited. Another podcast episode with someone from around the world, you know, in another time zone. But, Olivia, for people who don't know you, let me give some introduction to our listeners. So, guys, Olivia Lee.

Joeri: 1:15

She has 20 years of experience in various industries. She's a forerunner in Web3 and digital fashion. Sparked by a metaverse deck, she dove into crypto and NFTs. As the head of digital fashion at Allstars Women, she's pivotal in their economic design, championing women- led Web3 projects. You know in the Web3 arena, Olivia enlightens through her LinkedIn series and expert insights. Actively exploring the metaverse, she guides clients in the digital frontier, making her indispensable to the digital fashion's evolution. It's great to have you, Olivia. You know there were already a few women on my podcast who are in digital fashion like I don't know if you know them Marina Martianova, who is working at Seamm, and also Giovanna yeah, who is the producer of Fashion Week at the Decentraland, and maybe you know her, Giovanna Casimiro, Graziosi Casimiro. It's great to have you. I am a bit curious about your background. You know, like with every guest, how did you end up in the Web3 space?

Olivia: 2:30

Yes, thank you for that excellent introduction. First, Joeri, and I'm just like I said, I'm so happy to be here and I love that. You've already had great women in the space talking about digital fashion, so I'm so glad to be one of them on your podcast. So I get that question a lot. How did I get into Web 3? And it's such an interesting question. I love hearing it and discussing it with other people as well.

Olivia: 2:56

How I got in was actually quite accidental, you can say. I think in 2021, I joined a private investment company, and that private investment company is into very interesting kinds of projects, so a lot of alternative asset projects like crypto or crypto, obviously, but like quantum computing, carbon neutrality, alternative protein, like those kinds of really interesting projects. So I joined in as director of marketing to just oversee his communications and marketing across his group and at that time, the founder. He was holding a lot of these blue chip PFP NFTs and he was just so enthusiastic. This guy was just so really into Web 3 and the vision that it had for the entire creators' economy and because of that I really just wanted to. First of all, he's just so enthusiastic, so I couldn't help but really kind of lean into his vision of what it is, and partly it's because I also want to do my job well, you know. So I really kind of like understood it, because in order for me to perform the job well, there's no just surface kind of studying. You kind of really have to dig in and learn it and understand it in your own way. So I think one of the things that kind of popped on my desk, that kind of really opened my eyes into my rabbit hole, how I got into Web 3, was an interesting deck landed on my lap, like honestly, in the first week of the job. It was about a metaverse. Right, it was a shopping and metaverse and immersive space. It was a beautiful deck. It had like all these avatars, all of these big designer names just an immaculate deck. And I was like what is this metaverse thing?

Olivia: 4:47

But because of my last 15 to 20 years working in different kinds of industries, my interest has always been in fashion, technology, you can say e-commerce, and as a user, I was really into shopping, so I like shopping online and stuff. So right away it just clicked that the metaverse, whatever this is, is the new 3D immersive internet. So you can just imagine a space where you, as your avatar, can see your other friends there in real time going through different kinds of locations in very beautiful kind of environments and just shopping and putting things in your cart. Basically, it was just very magical, and through that, I started trying to read up about the Metaverse and kind of learn about it on my own accord. And then because of this, I went backward like, oh, in order to be in the metaverse, I will probably need to have some digital clothing because I need to dress my metaverse, I mean my avatar. And then in order to have the avatar or the digital fashion NFTs, I probably need to buy some crypto. In order to have a crypto, I need to have a meta mass and it all kind of trickled backwards and that's how I got into the space.

Olivia: 6:00

That's from a personal level, but from a work level at the time, because the founder of the private investment company I was working fo very well known and very respected for his ideas and contributions to the space. So around him, he had a lot of friends, maybe clients or portfolio companies wanting to learn more. So there are like maybe 50% of the portfolio company already in the Web3 space, but then there's the other 50% that are more traditional. So then he had a lot of inquiries and it became that he was giving such really great sound advice, either from like an educational level, like what is Web3, what are gals, what are NFTs, what is this craze about these? Like blue- chip NFTs or now we call them blue chips, but like NFTs and he was so open in embracing and sharing his vision. But he needs somebody to put that deck together and to kind of share it with his clients.

Olivia: 7:03

So I became that person. I had a great now that I look back with great honor. At the time I was like what is this? So then I kind of like understood and learned as I go. But because I was really listening to his ideas and his kind of vision of what is it going to be, it was just so convincing and because of my own interest in the metaverse, the two things gelled and that's how I got into this space. And then, naturally, at a later date, I feel like I wanted to pursue this full- time because I truly believe in what's to come.

Joeri: 7:34

I like how you did that. So you really watched. You saw the metaverse, oh, this thing in digital fashion, that's interesting. And then you were thinking backward okay, how should I go there? And that's maybe the way you know how to get more people in the space, to show what is possible and then explain to them how to get in and how to start with the difficult aspect of people looking at what is crypto, what is a wallet, and so on. And therefore I'm also curious you know, if your friends ask you, or maybe someone is introduced to you that's not in the space, and they ask what you do for your job or for your living, what do you tell them?

Olivia: 8:11

Oh gosh, that's a difficult question. I honestly wear many hats, Joeri. I feel like, why not? You know, like life is short, life is such a curious. You know, it's great to kind of get more experience and I'm curious by nature. I think right now those who are in the Web3 space, have a clear idea of what I'm trying to do, but I think for friends that may not be in this space, I usually tell them that I'm still a strategist, but I'm focusing on something called web three and what web three is is just using different sort of pieces of these new technology whether it's Metaverse, whether it's NFTs, whether it's blockchain to bring together into the new level.

Olivia: 8:55

I usually describe I'm mostly like a Metaverse maxi. I pretty much just want to live in the metaverse, and some of them might be very confused about how I just tell them if it's really just a 3D immersive internet. Because they already know that I'm a very much online person and I do everything online. I shop online, and all of my activities are online pretty much, but now I get to do it in a different kind of space, in real- time, interacting with other people. So I usually say that, but I love to throw in that I'm a metaverse explorer and that's when they're like what is that you know? And then I mean I think it's such a great time to be like exploring what's out there and having the freedom to really take the time to understand the space.

Olivia: 9:42

And I say that because, as a metaverse explorer like you just mentioned, Joeri, it's like my aha moment of why I need to be in this space. I also have this question why should other people be in this space? Like, why do brands build on a certain space and not on another space? So I usually say I'm a metaverse explorer because I take the time to jump into these different worlds. I would have called them maybe like gaming kind of worlds. You can say it is the easiest way to explain it to them. And then I understand what the brand wants the user to be doing there. What kind of activities? Is it a challenge? Do they want you to roam the entire?

Joeri: 10:21

land.

Olivia: 10:22

How big is the?

Joeri: 10:23

land.

Olivia: 10:23

Is it easy to onboard? Do I see other players there in real time or is it a single player? And then I use that to write because In the end I think I still love writing and I think of myself as a content creator I'm also a Web3 advocate and I hope that what I experienced first hand can be put in such an easily digestible way that it would spark their moment. Seeing such footage of somebody experiencing something, whether it's like McDonald's, which just happened on Sandbox, or perhaps a favorite French brand like L'Occitane through another way I hope, through my videos that I put together, will spark that moment for them and have them to have that inkling to try it for themselves. That's what I usually do. Does that answer your question?

Joeri: 11:18

kind of went from yes, because I like the word explorer too. That's, by the way, how I see my role on this podcast. I explore, you know. I talked with my guests and I explore, like I also explored the Metaverse. I organized myself already some events in the Metaverse for marketers. I was just like you know. I just do this. Let's just see what happens Like mini TED talks, like an AI art exhibition, like panel discussions.

Joeri: 11:44

That was on spatial and now I'm talking to different Metaverse builders. I, one of the, I would say, experiences that I had, was also fun with the Metaverse fashion week. I was in the boss room or the boss space, you know, spatial, and they had this digital fashion. I like the way that the boss did that because it's different than seeing an advertisement. No, you're just going to the space and you're just discovering everything. And you know, one in one of those panel discussions that organized myself in the Metaverse, one person was talking, you know, and he had his kids with them and the kids were talking about, you know, Roblox and these other like, if you can call the Metaverses for kids, and then we are asking them are there any advertisements, any brands, any advertisements in this Metaverse? Some Roblox and so on. Oh, no, no, no, it isn't. And what are your favorite places to go to? Oh, and then they said like the nighting, or you know, or the others, like all these events.

Olivia: 12:46

All I was just going to say is all advertisements.

Joeri: 12:48

Yeah, it's all, but you don't advertise them, right? You don't feel like it, and that's what I like. And also to explain to people you know what the Metaverse is just by. I know you're also, you're making those videos. I know you're doing stuff on LinkedIn, maybe other places. Can you talk a bit more about that?

Olivia: 13:04

Yeah, no, I mean, we're just in Web 2 right now where we haven't really moved to like the token- gated type of platform. There's not enough, you know eyeballs on those just yet, right, but I would imagine that's probably the next place. Something like Sybil UX, Patreon, or something like Mirror. x yz is probably where I would be exploring. Right now. My content is predominantly on LinkedIn. I mean, like that's how we connected as well, Right, I find LinkedIn to be a really good place to meet other Web 3 thought leaders or people who are interested in this space. So predominantly majority of my content is placed there. But at the same time, I'm looking to put it onto other platforms.

Olivia: 13:45

But there's only so much time in a day, you know, and I haven't fully explored all of the wonderful AI tools that's going to automatically help me reformat everything in the best resolution sizes, you know, help me, you know, kind of like jam out with like the most viral possible hashtags so I can put it across all of my different kind of medias, media right, so not there yet, but I do have a YouTube channel and I'm hoping to extend the type of videos I'm doing. Right now they're like short videos, like under one minute long, because majority the majority our time is sort of scrolling and I just wanted to kind of show the gist of the location, the world that I was exploring. So it's usually under one minute and I try to kind of put in interesting facts about what that brand wants you to do while you're there, Right? So it's like like following cursor or jump jumping or collect collecting five tokens and then you tap on this and it leads you to the Web 2 website. That's what I usually do. I hope at a later date, I suppose maybe the last quarter of this year, I'm going to start focusing on extending those videos and really talking about it, about, you know, the differences among these different metaverse platforms, after jumping on more than I see 20 platforms and more, I'm probably more than that now and I probably jumped in about more than 50 worlds.

Olivia: 15:06

So brand activations that are either permanent or temporary, I'm starting to get a really good feel about these different platforms. And what are the nuances between them like? Either from a payment standpoint, if it's like streamed, or is it like using AWS and it has deeper depths, better kind of hyper- real kind of execution is starting to be really clear. So I think that's a new angle. I'd love to kind of spend more time discussing it. Maybe it's going to be a podcast, who knows, right? So I'm exploring it right now. But I think how this started Yuri was just me just trying to understand the different space I'm talking about 11 months ago is when I started to do it like or like actively and regularly, and I didn't intend for it to be like like a regular thing. I just enjoy it so much so I just keep doing it.

Joeri: 15:57

Yeah, like I enjoy my podcast. You know doing that, talking to people, it doesn't take me energy, it gives me energy. You know to do that, like with public speaking, and I like to, you know, inspire people to learn, to explore, as we said. And I'm also, you know, I have my podcast, which is the main source of my content, but it's, as my listeners know, it's turning to a blog post, show notes. There are some reels that are an infographic, it's a bit everywhere and I also have a newsletter, LinkedIn tin, but also a newsletter done by AI, which is just taking content from my blog.

Joeri: 16:35

I have now more than 100 episodes, which is just making a personalized newsletter for everyone. That's what I like.

Olivia: 16:41

I think the best way, Joeri, is when, like for myself right now, I mean I can talk a little bit more about what Livium does, but like it's not to kind of plan it so stringently, you know, because I think my strength is planning and, like you've already mentioned, I realize that now that you've mentioned it, I take something and I work backward. That's how I usually operate. So, whether it was an idea I saw and then I worked backward on how to achieve it. I use the same kind of thinking, like a hat on or methodology, you can call it when I do some of my white paper, when I create a white paper, when I talk to clients, right, so all of these things are usually I spend so much time planning like, oh, what is this going to be? It's going to be this, this, this, and I've had, I've started businesses in the past and I overthink and I over plan and then it becomes so difficult to execute and, depending on your personality, you might be like a perfectionist and then you feel kind of pulled back that you're not executing everything that you've planned and you feel kind of stressed about it and then you kind of deserted, at least in my situation that one time.

Olivia: 17:51

So I think I like just taking it smoothly now, like just letting things kind of come out. That's how the metaverse explorer started and that's how Livium started.

Joeri: 18:01

Great, you know, that's also how I like to do it. Just, you know, do it and like do the podcast, and because if you think too much, you probably won't do it, like start a podcast, the podcast started from zero some time ago and now I just you know, I just noticed someone told me that it's in a 5% you know top podcast.

Joeri: 18:22

Like I just saw it, I was just before. So wow, that's amazing. I will share. I will share it on Twitter, I will share it on other places too. But yeah, we haven't talked about Livvium yet. So I am also curious what is the vision and the goal of Livvium. What's your mission?

Olivia: 18:39

Okay, well, I think in a nutshell it's really a Web3 and Metaverse consultancy or advisory. I want to also specialize in the ideation stage, or not even the planning stage just yet, but really the ideation, the pre-stage, I'd like to call it. So what that is Livvium is two parts. So it's really my alter ego, which is my metaverse explorer that we've already talked about, the one that's actually the user or the consumer- centric, who's exploring all these wonderful worlds that are coming about, kind of activated by brands. And then there's the real life, me, Olivia, the person who really likes to analyze, dig in, look through things, plan things, and, use my many years of skills across all of these different experiences and work I've had, and use all of those kind of accumulated years of experience and thinking through top down, bottom up, this type of thinking and use it to help brands discover and explore the possibilities into the metaverse. So a perfect example would be the kind of two types of clients that would come about to Livvium. One may be companies that already have their eyes on Web3, they've noticed the news, and they know it's not going anywhere. They may be an executive and they want to put together a potential plan on how they can use their existing business model and think of additional business models or revenue stream that makes sense to their model, right? So some of these could be independent fashion or beauty brands. That's just looking to explore it. So I call these sort of like the ideation stage, where I get to know the company and then I come up with different possible business models from a high- level point of view on how they can utilize their existing kind of like customer base, their products, their services, maybe their long term goal, maybe all of these different kind of ways. So that's the Web2 type of client. And then there would be types that are already in the space and Livium would provide maybe white paper services or even additional consulting, in which is the right metaverse to deploy their plan. If they already have goals to jump into the metaverse, these clients usually already jumped in, already started a digital fashion collection, for example, and then they at some point, like a lot of businesses probably didn't do the business planning, the strategy, because they had the gusto to like let's do this. You know they have the people, the talent, the technology, maybe some funding, and basically the vision, like let's not wait, let's do it. There's a lot of businesses like that right, and then at some point they realized that maybe they need to kind of pitch to investors, maybe they need to take their business to the next level and then they need someone to write white paper. So through that they usually contact me and then I understand their existing business and put together the white paper for them. So that's sort of the Livvium side.

Olivia: 21:53

And then what I see between the two spaces is this kind of came naturally, Joeri, I think I just realized this about where I stand in this whole Web3 ecosystem, maybe about just a couple of months ago. Because, like I said, like we've talked about, is very organic. The content creator and the curious explorer in me are constantly out there trying out new metaverse platforms and really understanding the space, really thinking about it as a consumer. Why do I want to be on this? What do I get out of it, you know? And then from the brand, why did the brand deploy there and what do they have planned for the clients or the user after this? They're brand active and then the ideation stage is the earliest stage. So you've got two ends of the spectrum, you know.

Olivia: 22:41

But then any clients that probably come to me at some point may want to execute right. And through my constant exploring and meeting these wonderful people in this whole Web3 ecosystem, I'm slowly being able to kind of fill in all of these potential fashion Web3 enablers. And you can just imagine there are just so many people in this entire Web3 universe and I'm talking about specifically fashion related. So a lot of these companies like, for example, I met a company that creates all of these NFC chips, NFC chips that are tied to, maybe, NFT. So there are some of these hardware that's available. They're designers you meet. They are definitely metaverse platforms. There's like virtual try-on mirrors.

Olivia: 23:27

So basically, at some point all of these wonderful people I'm meeting in the Web3 space and, depending on what kind of service and product they have, I can slowly fill in the gap between what I offer from a strategic and analytical side and a planning side to me as an end user, what I expect to achieve right when I jump into these metaverse, and then I'm able to use what I've learned to integrate it when I put into these proposals for the clients.

Joeri: 24:51

So, Olivia, another thing that's always on my mind is these days when I tell people I'm doing stuff in the metaverse, or I want to organize things, or I want to do stuff with Web3, I see hesitation with people and it feels like I need to explain them more. Okay, they are interested, but the sense of urgency seems not to be there, like why do they need to take action now? Do you all also feel that or is that maybe in the fashion industry? I know a lot of people in the fashion industry are interested in actually maybe less of a thing.

Olivia: 25:27

Okay, I think from a daily conversation that I think 99% of us do not know what it is and the 1% of us do. We do know what it is, but out of the 1% of us, probably only a good 50% are actively in this space. You know what I mean, like either as a user, or you're a builder, or you really have a business in this space, right?

Olivia: 25:50

So I think there's a long way to go before people start thinking about what is the problem with putting a name to a term. You know, like Web2, Web3, NFTs. Digital fashion is a scary thing and is intimidating. People like to kind of chase trends and stuff, but they don't like changes. You know what I mean. So I think all of these terminologies we put out are scary, right if you think back to emails. Right, like you know, it's been around for a while now.

Olivia: 26:25

And if you look back to like I think there was like a viral clip that was circulating that's sort of making fun of what email was on some sort of TV talk show. And they're like oh well, how do you pronounce that? At Like Olivia, at Like, how do you pronounce this, you know? And you think back is like what a? That is just ridiculous. So I think this is sort of like the evolution of time and technology. If you just think back, even a few years ago, when we were all glued to our iPhones, now it's the first thing we touch when we wake up, it's the last thing our entire life is. There is being managed and kind of dictated by algorithms and as soon as already dictated by AI and stuff like do they know that? Probably don't, but it's made their life a lot more convenient, right? And then the same thing like even like QR codes when it first came out, we still don't even know what it is like. Why do I have to scan this and everything? And all of these sorts of like progressions are just ways that are found more convenient. Is bringing us more convenience, is kind of getting us to explore new things. So people are scared because there's a name to it. You know, once you kind of get rid of the word, then it's much easier.

Olivia: 27:32

So I think, in order for more people to experience what we already know and what are some of the benefits that's gonna come to us is probably through different kinds of brands and their very seamless activations, seamless campaigns, that they realize they get some value out of it without even realizing it. So a good example would be if you go to a brand so we can use Hugo Boss since you mentioned that, you talked about Spatial and I went to that event as well so when you go on to hugoboss. com right, it's a very relatively flat, 2D kind of website, right but then on the leaderboard or the front part of the website, you see. This thing goes like oh, join our live fashion show. And then you jump into, you tap in and it's probably just linked to Spatial and it's already brought you into that 3D immersive world. And then it tells you oh, collect these tokens, run around, and see these fashions up close. So you're just running around and see these fashions up close and then when you tap into these fashions it brings you back to the Web2 website where you put it into your basket and you check out right, and all of a sudden that experience has already opened your eye because it's something new.

Olivia: 28:49

Like, oh, this is an interesting way to see something up close and personal. But I still checked out the way I checked out. In fact, I use PayPal. Another thing that was kind of weird like 15 years ago and now is second nature. In fact, there are so many different sorts of payment gateways local ones and everything, new ones Like there are local ones in Hong Kong that already take payment. That was never a payment gateway before. All of these things are sort of uncertain before, but until it kind of happens to you and you see it enough and it's brought you some sort of seamless experience it just becomes part of your day-to-day nature.

Joeri: 29:27

Yeah, as you mentioned, if those bigger brands will start to do like these activities or like these campaigns, people will be attracted to them, like the boss campaign or others, and maybe you know, they will see what it is and they will say, oh, I want to be a part of it or I want to be with my business. I don't want to miss this wave or this trade, because the wave maybe it's still the big wave that still needs to be.

Olivia: 29:53

Yeah, the wave hasn't really happened yet, but then, I mean because I'm more interested in the fashion space. So you know, we'll use this as an example.

Olivia: 30:02

But, brands right now. I think fashion brands are definitely in this space because, of course, fashion brands really need to cultivate and deliver beautiful products and services, and I think they always look at their target audience. And those target audiences are naturally, as we all talk about, like the Gen Z and even the Alpha group, right? And where are they? They're all on Roblox, right? So then, all of the Roblox, this is the next generation. I think there was like a report that came out that in the next couple of years, 70% of the people who are going to be consuming all these luxury goods will come from Gen Z and the Alpha group, right? So for brands like, I guess, like any of these fashion brands, it is in their best interest to kind of find out where the next client and the segment of the target audience will be. So this is the reason why they're in the Roblox or Fortnite and using that to deploy some of those what you say are not advertisements like those banners that we used to see, that kind of ticks up all of your web space, like the header, the footer, the side banners, I think.

Olivia: 31:10

But you see them, like you said, like maybe like wearables or gaming or skins. That's in the like in Roblox or in Fortnite that different avatars are running around in and how that usually gets deployed is through drops. So either something that's kind of attached in the physical world, like in a retail setting, that allows the person who kind of received the digital wearable and asset and then that gets used in those gaming environments and other kids are going to be seeing it and be like oh, what are those interesting check marks on the shirts and the shoes? Right, assuming they're very young, there's nobody that doesn't know Nike, but you know they may see it and then maybe in their real life you may also see that the parents are already wearing Nikes and stuff like that and at some point the consumer, like their understanding of what's valuable, what brand they need to be wearing, would be kind of like connected and then they realize that well when we go to Nike, this is the stuff that they want.

Joeri: 32:12

Right. Another big name you know is Apple, with their VR headset that they are launching. Do you have any thoughts on that, because I like this VR headset. When I did my metaverse event, it really felt like I was there. And now Apple. I guess if they are launching something, even if it is expensive, maybe, you know, this can make a wave outside of the fashion industry. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Olivia: 32:42

Yeah, I think. Well, first of all, I definitely put my hand up. I'm going to be the first to get that Vision Pro, you know, I think. I mean, I think in very like lifestyle kind of settings, different products, especially. There are just so many diehard Apple fans, you know. They want to get every single product and in hindsight I probably have gotten every single product in the entire Apple universe, you know. So I'm not missing out on this one.

Olivia: 33:09

I think if you think about, like the iPod, you know, and the fact that maybe about 15 or even a little bit more, maybe 18 years ago around there, around the time, that white headset with the like, the cord, the wire was a fashion statement, you know, like you want to be seen with that because it tells you that you're in the know, right. So certain products definitely bring people forward and get their eyes into it. So that's sort of the start of like. You know Spotify, you know these kind of streaming like music, because all of a sudden it's a portable thing that you can go around coupled with.

Olivia: 33:51

I think back then iPod didn't have the 5G but naturally that's an obsolete product now right, but having these products definitely bring people a lot forward because it's a lifestyle product, it is a product that you need to have. It's like people still kind of use their like phones to kind of show how ahead you are, like oh, I've got the, you know the first iPhone 14 or something like that. So these things really bring it forward. I think with the the spatial computing of the Vision Pro, we'll definitely get more people who are not interested in the Metaverse but somehow find that they can't look without the product. And then you get the next wave and the wave after that, and then the product keeps progressing, and then the apps and your lifestyle is going to be progressing. So all of these things will definitely be further along.

Joeri: 34:39

Well, that's also the feeling that I have. You know that we are going step by step and maybe, if a chat GPT didn't come, we would still talking more about the metaverse. But I feel like you know, behind the scenes, the wave is coming. So, Olivia, it feels like we can talk for ages about this, but I think you already told a lot of interesting things for people and if they want to know more about everything that you're doing maybe the video content that you are making, where would you like to send them?

Olivia: 35:13

Okay, yeah, so I think I'm most. I'm definitely most active on LinkedIn right now, so you can search for my name is Olivia Lee, or you can search through the URL at Olivia Lee 3, and you'll be able to find me. Other ways are through YouTube. I'm starting a new account there. It's going to be at Livvium, so L-I-V-V-I-U-M.

Joeri: 35:37

Okay, great. As I already mentioned, there will be show notes, there will be a blog article. I feel links will be put in there. So if you're now listening to the show, go there and find Olivia's things. If you think that this episode is useful for people around you, feel free to share it with them, if they are interested in the Metaverse or not yet, and, of course, I would like to see you back for the next podcast episode, and thank you, Olivia.

Olivia: 36:07

Thank you so much for having me.

Joeri: 36:10

Bye-bye everyone. Bye Bye. Web3 can take your biz to new heights and you're ready to harness its power, but feeling lost and overwhelmed. Therefore, join my W3X Web3 mastermind. Send me a personal message for more info. You can find me everywhere on social media. There's only one person with my name, Joeri Billast. Talk soon.