Steven: 0:00

I fear we're losing that with AI, where everybody's if everyone's using the same tools, giving the same prompts and same inputs, you're going to have a sea of sameness.

Joeri: 0:11

Hello and welcome everyone to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast and I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really excited to be joined by Steven. Hi, Steven, how are you? Hi?

Steven: 0:24

Joeri , I'm Steven. How are you, hi, Joeri ? I'm very well. How are you?

Joeri: 0:27

Yeah, guys, I see you're in Lisbon and it's same weather as here in Sintra A bit cloudy, but the sun is coming through. Guys, if you're wondering, who is Steven Steven Dolcemaschio? Actually, he spent his 15 plus years of career at the intersection of culture, commerce and technology. He began his career running a renowned independent record label, tp records, before focusing on building and refining brands at global consumer organizations like nike, converse and sonos. Steven held more marketing leadership roles in these organizations before joining Crypto Security Pioneer Ledger to lead brand marketing in 2021. And he's currently the CMO of Reown, formerly known as Wallet Connect, where he's focused on improving on-chain UX for builders and consumers. That's already an impactful, amazing intro, stephen. Yeah, so let's start like this. You've navigated brand leadership roles for these companies. I mentioned Sonos Dagger, now Reown. How is your view on what makes a brand truly iconic, evolved across tech, music and fintech?

Steven: 1:47

I think there's one constant throughout my career and I've seen this at every brand I'm in, having started in culture and music culture is at the center of everything right, and you have to find ways to authentically connect yourself to that through your product.

Steven: 2:04

Ultimately, product is at the heart of everything you do and I think, like the way you, the great brands, product is, the storytelling is always about the product of insane romance are always about the product, and I was lucky enough to work in a nike and converse where, like, marketing and product are hand in hand. That is the brand. So no, it's like culture comes out of the product. Beautifully designed design. You know like it is. It is where it sits in the home, like these things were held quite sacred at these companies and then even at ledger too. It's a hardware, it is something that is a central part of your life. So, like, how do you balance utility versus the, the functional storytelling of the product? That's always the, the sweet spot in my eyes. But everything has to come from my culture, product at the intersection of those things, and everything you do has to be like, even if it's like intangible, you're always communicating the living product truths when you're doing events, advertising, blogs doesn't matter. That has to always kind of be the through point.

Joeri: 3:08

Yeah, absolutely I love. You mentioned storytelling. That's actually what the podcast is about. Web3 CMO Stories is what I love to do. It's not about these product features, it's about the stories around that. And yeah, now you're in Web3. And so then I'm curious what was then the turning point that convinced you to go in the Web3 direction, that it's really something that you would love to do as a marketer?

Steven: 3:32

Yes, like my crypto journey, like I became, I think, very crypto aware in the 2017 cycle. Mainly all my gaming friends were like you got to get Bitcoin.

Steven: 3:40

And of course I was like one of those people to tell them yeah, whatever, sure, and yeah, like faded him a bit and now regret that. And I think it was really like when, when things really really connected with me it was during covid and the initial nft run, like that just just spoke like digital artifacts on james, just like immediately it was like, oh, it's like yes, this this makes sense, this is the future, this is where we're going. And then an opportunity came for me, serendipitously. I was in paris looking for, kind of looking at what I wanted to do next.

Steven: 4:11

I kind of very much felt like the world is moving, especially after covid, that he kind of saw the world's moving in a different direction, right especially after, I think, living, like working in high growth tech for years, being being in music, like always like very tumultuous industries where there's always growth, decline, firing, hiring, you're kind of always. But after COVID I think things changed in the work world. I was very much like well, where do I want to position myself for the future? Where are my skills best suited? Somebody who's a bit of a renegade I really like want to always be in creativity, things that are moving the world and culture forward and it just felt natural to go.

Steven: 4:47

I I thrive in like a frontier style space where there's no rules and doing things that haven't been done before. So it just felt like my personal capital was best put into this industry and like the place where I could make the most impact, rather than going back to a consumer brand or back to like a slow moving organization that is coming to terms with a changing world really slowly and I and I think you're seeing that in like the last and where business has been over the last couple of years. So, yeah, that's kind of was my, was my journey there, but it was definitely very much like I was like nft crazy. Yeah, for for better, for worse. My bags, I held onto everything. I round tripped every single.

Joeri: 5:28

Yeah, for me also, it was like a pivotal year. So many things changed. The world changed, the view of other people changed and you see a lot of things happening. Yeah, yeah, and about impact, I also, you know, creating impact, great impact, with what you're doing in a new space. That's also why I love web3 and our ai, because now you can heavily have an impact for people that are maybe not yet using it fully. Now coming back to reown and wallet connects, so you are rethinking compliance and ux at infrastructure level. Why would marketers care so deeply about something that seems under the hood?

Steven: 6:08

Well, I think it all comes back to your customers, right? And it goes back to this idea of storytelling. We do a terrible job of storytelling in this industry. We actually always focus on what's under the hood rather than focus on the benefits and what it does for you, right? So, whether I'm talking to a, a sales lead or a developer, they all need storytelling, right, and they all need content and they all need things to make them feel that your solution is the best one for them. And I think too often in this space we focus on the, the utility of what you're building super jargon, heavy gradients all over the place, like the content it kind of doesn't really tell a story. And I think, like from where I always thought, think of as a marketer, it's like, how do I apply my creativity and creativity and storytelling to solve a business problem, Rather than and I think like we kind of eschew that a lot in this space Again if you just think, oh, it's just in for a while, Stripe is in for, but it's really inspiring.

Steven: 7:16

But they're like like like you can, you can, you can like that space. That stripe is a, is a is a payment spot for it, for for businesses. But they don't present themselves that way. If you look at the event they just did in San Francisco the stripe sessions it doesn't look like a payments-impro company. I think I try to bring that mindset to like what we do in our space, because I think we often, too often, like romanticize the tech versus like romanticizing the benefit and the impact it has for you. That's whether you're like a decision maker at a company or you're a developer or you're a user right, because our product ultimately touches all those people. Stas Milsomis.

Joeri: 7:44

Iyuno I'll give an example, maybe, of something you recently or you're a user right, because our product ultimately touches all those people. Can you give an example, maybe, of something you recently launched for a re-own and how you added storytelling to that or not talking about, you know, pure features, but the benefits of it?

Steven: 7:56

We just released something called the State of On-Chain UX, which is a super comprehensive report that we did in collaboration with nansen. We interviewed a thousand users, took a bunch of data on chain combined on chain data from nansen and then all the data we have from from the wallet connect network and packaged it up in a super well designed way, really got a bunch of thought leaders and partners to to contribute to it with think pieces, with quotes. But at the end of the day it's like it's promotion. It's at its core, it's a promotional tool for the company and the product. But it's presented like we had Pixel Fools and really one of the digital artists do the cover. We put some of his. We also like put some of the. We're putting some of the content on Zora and just playing around with that idea of putting culture on chain, especially when it's like branded assets. We did one of these last year. It was called the Wildcatic Pulse Report.

Steven: 8:48

But to me that these things are great experiences to express the brand but through the like useful, almost like sales driven information people like ultimately excel. It's almost like it's a sales enablement tool. It's a brand builder, it's it's brand content, it's it's lead gen content, but it's also like an expression of who we are, like we're a ux company. We want to express beautiful design. We want beautiful design to shine through. We want you to feel like, oh, if I work with that company, they have the tools I need to seamlessly integrate and capture users like you have to. And I think it's really kind of the role of like design comes into play into and what I try to, in you and everything we do is like how does everything feel super, feel like premium design, which is often like, which, again, is like it's often overlooked in the ux, in our space.

Steven: 9:40

Then we're not perfect, by no means. I don't think anyone is. But it's like the thinking about the user experience of everything you do is how is a journalist going to look at this versus how is a a potential lead going to look at this? And I've been kind of thinking through who like those touch points but like at the same, but the everybody should feel something when they, when they see this, it should feel like, oh, they thought this was thoughtful, they really put in work into this and you can tell by, I think, looking at it versus just seeing the cover has to, because, like, who wants to. You want someone to read 80 pages of research. They it needs to be compelling to. There needs to be kind of a it's the cover of the book matters a lot of it yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Joeri: 10:20

You see my books in the background, by the way, and the cover like the 5k challenge, like that's it really.

Joeri: 10:25

It did really well in the us, like people like to cover. In europe a bit less because you know, but it depends also on your audience and value. You know you go with with your content and it's. It's interesting because I saw the report was you know that and, like a few days before, I am also working with SecretSold, which is a company that has a solution to protect a seed phrase with an image, and they also had a report that we were writing. I was not realizing that you guys also, at the same time, had another kind of report. This report is more about, you know, research that they need to serve in with wallet users and we also worked a lot on how it looks, because that's important, because people they don't want to read a text or a document. It should look good and the messages should be appealing.

Steven: 11:14

And they're going to take it and now run it through ChatGPT and give me the summary right, and that also is something you have to think about now is I put so much time and effort into this? Does this work for when somebody takes it and runs it through ChatGPT or Grok or another AI tool? You have to really think about that.

Joeri: 11:35

Absolutely, Stephen, and I can give the example of a report. I just wanted to run to ChatGPT and then it said I cannot read the pages because, depending on how it is saved, you know, as a PDF, ChatGPT can read or not read. You know what's in there. So that was interesting too.

Steven: 11:51

It's a whole new lens on accessibility right. Like. It's a completely new lens on how you think about accessibility and who your audience is.

Joeri: 12:01

Absolutely.

Steven: 12:01

Because now AI is one of your audiences.

Joeri: 12:04

It is. It is so. I talk about that too in my workshops. So AI is like an audience, but also people use AI a lot, also as Google, even if it's not the ideal replacement. Ai is better in logical thinking and in you know logical thinking and in creating stuff than in researching. But then you need to optimize your content also for the ai you know to that it can be found and it can be used. Important is the audience, of course, also for you flat b2c, b2b strategies globally. How are you adapting your storytelling? So, when you have an audience ranging from crypto native devs maybe, to enterprise CFOs, I'm curious.

Steven: 12:49

I think this all comes down to like a few things, I think consistency and tone. I think you want you generally want things to look in a consistent way when you're delivering visually and then you need kind of certain principles as well for messaging that are guides for for the team when writing right, like you want to be helpful, you want to be clear, you want to be articulate. You have to apply those things, I think, to whether it's a developer or a cfo. Now the information they get might be different. Like I might be highlighting more technical information for a developer and I want the docs to be more of a helpful guide for them than if it's, because if the language is too technical or too marketing driven they're, you're going to lose them right, and that's your kind of point of conversion for a developer, for for a cfl.

Steven: 13:41

More visual, like very. You want to be aspirational, you want to be very clear, but the technique, the core tonal voice of your brand shouldn't, shouldn't, change. But the con, like the content you deliver well and and I think that's something I'm trying, I'm thinking about like very intently more and more, especially with, like what we're talking about ai, like if we're not clear, how can you expect a machine machine learning to understand it? Or if? Because if a human can't, you can't, you can't expect a absolutely uh ai to.

Steven: 14:17

So I really feel like consistency and delivery of tone are very, very important messaging values when you're, when you're communicating to your audiences. And they and again they, they want a story told to them like like they still, they're still human beings. They want, they, want you to, they want it to look like you care. You know they don't, they don't, it's not like, oh, because it's developer, they don't, they don't want to go because it's developer, they don't care, they just want technical info.

Steven: 14:41

It's not entirely true. You know they want. They want to know why they should build with your products. Well, what benefits do you offer them, Whether functional or maybe even emotional? You know, it could just be, it could just be the. I like the feel of your brand, I like the.

Joeri: 14:55

I like the way things read, you know, like I like the imagery you share with me and the guy I mean, like it's helpful I don't need to go somewhere else, but these are, you know, these are, these are important things yeah, the emotions, of course, that you feel like that and the clarity that you have and you know the yeah, I was was saying talking this morning to to the. The context is also important. If you I was talking about ai with a bigger company in Belgium, international company, and I said, yeah, the context is important, you treat AI or your audience like you start a conversation. You just don't give it an order or an instruction, you know, and then you give it a context. So that's important, like you said the brand, the feeling, the, you know everything around it.

Steven: 15:39

I think also listening to internal partners. Okay, like if you're, if your business development team is like, hey, people don't know about us. Well, okay, then you're thinking okay, why, what am I? What are we doing? What are we not saying enough of? What are we doing wrong?

Steven: 15:53

If it's like developers are saying that the engineering team is saying this isn't, this doesn't connect with me as developers, like, well, the question is, is saying this isn't, this doesn't connect with me as developers, like, well, the question is, is that you? Or or is it like is it through your lens or you're not thinking about it through the lens of somebody on the other side who's not you working here? And I think that's kind of and that's always a challenge, I think, especially at technical, sas, engineering driven organizations right, how do you romanticize stuff? It's not that sexy, you know and and and. But I think you also, to listen to you, have to take inputs from everywhere. I think that's also really important.

Steven: 16:29

I think sometimes people struggle to, as a marketer, to kind of take a lot of input, and then it's like how? Because your job ultimately is like you're an editor in chief, right, you can take it from all over the place. And then it's how do? Because your job ultimately is like you're an editor-in-chief, right, you can take it from all over the place. And then it's how do you? The art, I think, is pulling what's most valuable and pulling in the insights from internally too. That will help you refine your messaging and content, because you're always iterating, right, there's not like especially nowadays, like there's no silver bullet. You kind of always are evolving your tone and evolving your messaging and evolving your context. Then you're just moving way too fast for you not to do that, especially in our space.

Joeri: 17:10

Yeah, and that's also where humans then come in, because we're talking a lot about AI and then that's what the humans can do Adapt and adding and not be doing great content but, you know, really adapting it on really fine tuning, adding some.

Steven: 17:26

You know, a friend of mine, mark Schaefer, talks about audacious marketing, some audacious aspect in it, so not not something that AI would say, but something that stands out so, yeah, I think it's like, it's like being a producer you're not making the music, but you're like try this chord or do this beat, you know, and that's where that is where the humanity comes into play and the art of marketing comes into play to me, because I think that's the stuff that, yeah, it's intangible and it can seem a bit ephemeral, but it's not. You know, like there's a reason Rick Rubin produces and it can seem a bit ephemeral, but it's not. You know, like there's a reason Rick Rubin produces Everyone wants to work with him. There's a reason everybody wants to work with Pharrell. It's like they, they have something that you can't, just, you can't emulate. You know you can't, you can't. Just. There's a magic to it a bit, and I fear we're losing that with AI, where everybody's, if everyone's using the same tools, giving the same prompts and same inputs, you're going to have a sea of sameness.

Steven: 18:24

If everybody's posting the same meme that they got from chat GPT, then is it a meme. Like, if everybody's doing it and that was kind of what really hit me with like the, the get studio Ghibli and then the, the fur logo, I'm like oh wow, this is happening fast. We're like beans are going go. I'm like, oh wow, this is happening fast when, like beings are going, the virality speed is from the speed from virality to ubiquity is like instantaneous now when, like it's like a few seconds before, what you just did is unoriginal Because everybody just did it and that's kind of I think that's kind of the interesting thing. Point or in these early days, is how do you, how do you differentiate yourself and everybody's doing using using the same things, and the tools you're using are learning the same this, that they're going to feed you the same things. If you're asking the same similar questions everybody else is asking absolutely so.

Joeri: 19:16

I think it's just a matter of not to be boring, but that with everything that you're doing, you know, at value, not be not saying what everyone else is saying, doing some experiments too. I know. You know you worked at Sonos, at Ledger. I guess you did lots of experiments too, to see what is working, what's not working. But it's maybe an unforgettable campaign or experiments that's changed, that give you, gave you an insight, or maybe changed how you lead your teams.

Steven: 19:47

Today to hear that I think you know I was lucky to like be molded by some like really iconic and great marketers, especially in my time at like Nike, converse and Sonos. In my time at like nike, converse and sonos and the there's a, there was, there was a, a value at sonos that really stuck with me and it was like it was experience. The experience is everything. Like sonos was like relentless about the perfect experience, their product and if it bled through every aspect of the company, like from engineering, from product to design, from go to market. Like the experience is everything was something like you did, you took so seriously and when you have that kind of conviction at a company is really powerful, it really produces. Like there's always tensions and things between different, but like you're all working to produce the best possible and and that was really it wasn't an and it was more of an experience and an experiment, but like that mindset really, because at nike everything was, it was expected to be great like you had. There it is. It is baseline that everything you're doing is this is what great looks like.

Steven: 21:03

Most of the time is what you're doing, like it's a very high far, but then when you come to tech and son, I was like that, that kind of really rigorous attention to detail from every aspect of the organization really instilled in me like a, an approach to marketing and go to market that I I just take into everything and really the process and the journey with the team I think is the most important, like that freedom, part of part of the experience being everything is fucking up sometimes and messing up and making things better.

Steven: 21:32

Right, like that's part of that's part of it. Right, that's part of like being like there's another value we have, like relentlessly progressive, which was really like again, like similar to that where it didn't things didn't have to be perfect, but like you were always in the pursuit of making things the best experience possible and how the last, the next thing you did has to be better than the last thing you did, and so forth. Right, so I think those are, those are things that really just sit with me, especially in an industry where we don't value, I think, experiences in the way we should. We don't put them on the the pedestal.

Steven: 22:07

You see that events, you see it in branding, you see it in product experience, like we're we're often not thinking about, we're being innovative, but often at the sake of like utility and even like basic human experience, sometimes, like events that are too crowded, that you know, or like the not even thinking through, like what you're serving people or how, like all these little things that you have to think about. You know, I think you go to all the conference the conferences are a great example where it's like people just go to go, they go to, there's not even a, they just stand out. There has to be. I have even found this having things like a nice, a thoughtful catering cuts through in our space because most of the time we don't, people aren't thinking of that level of detail. So I I feel like those are, I don't know, like those things to me like really, really important values to have as a marketer, especially in industry where, again, we often have said the technology is always coming ahead of the utility a lot of the time.

Joeri: 23:10

Yeah, it resonates with you what you're saying. I was not thinking of talking about that, but actually I'm in Sintra. I told you I'm organizing a retreat here in Sintra. We have three AI retreats for leaders that come together. But to get out of the noise, you know you go to a conference, you have so much things are happening. You know you're overwhelmed with everything and when you go outside of that spot and you come on another spot, like here in Sintra, you get a time to really connect and have meaningful conversations and and see what really resonates with people.

Steven: 23:43

Yeah, I completely agree. I think like that, that is like the experience, like having people much rather have a meaningful experience than a than one is surface level and doesn't connect Then you just, you know, and I think you're, you build better relationships with your business partners, with your, with your consumers. If you're, if you're thinking about things that way because I do again, like to the larger theme, like there is, we are moving to like a, a hyper niche culture, like a mass niche of things versus like people are, like you're seeing a lot of brands come onto the scene that are hyper serving a large niche. Like I look at, running is the best example of that. Nobody, nobody, thought nike could ever lose market share until they did, because they took their focus off the core essence of the company, which is running, and it opened up the door for all these challenger brands who only focus about running, focus on running and and hyper serve that consumer. Like hoka on solomon, like these are all now like disrupting a company that we thought couldn't be disrupted.

Steven: 24:48

You know, nike was like every marketer if you were giving a presentation to your company, this is best in class marketing. Nike was always how to do it. Now it's kind of like well, this is also how you, if you take your eye off the ball, do it. Now it's kind of like well, this is also how you, if you take your eye off the ball, if you folk up, if you focus less on the consumer, more for optimization of conversion, you, you lose the connection and especially, we're jumping around a bit. But especially, I think, like in the web2 world, what happened was like every company outsourced their data in relation to their customer to google and facebook. Most companies don't even know who their consumer is. They have no, unless they're like a d, a hardcore d2c brand that owned their relationship. That's why they're all struggling right now, because none of them know who their consumer is, because they've been just paying google and meta to get easy conversions or some performance market.

Steven: 25:41

Everything was for performance, performance, performance. And now everybody's like oh shit, we have to build a brand, we have to tell stories, and these are iconic companies that are going through this. It's not just like something we're seeing in our space. I think. It's a larger trend happening where companies are realizing oh wait, we have to really have meaningful experiences with our customers, otherwise there's other places they can go, we can get disrupted. Really, it's really easy to get disrupted if somebody is focusing like you're focused on a lot of things someone's like focus on. How do I just catch that one that person cares deeply about, cares as deeply as they do or more about this thing?

Joeri: 26:20

yeah, and I think also we didn't mention it yet, but community building it's not only about performance management, having the community. I actually I gave a talk about the theme of the future sometime, you know, I think two weeks ago in oera, here in elizabeth, and one of the things I said, like the community, it's like you know, in the middle evil ages you had your castle and you had the water around the castle and the community keeps you know, the enemy out but keeps you know your users and everyone inside in a safe environment, and I I love that metaphor.

Steven: 26:51

I don't know if you agree, but communities, yeah yeah, I, I and I think I think our industry kind of piloted the idea again of community, like I think it started, because, basically, everything in crypto is a community, bitcoin is a community, ethereum is a community, solana is a community. There's niche communities within those communities. There's art, there's digital art communities, there's still some NFT communities like there, and I think that we don't get enough credit for that because I think, like, a lot of brands are like oh, our community, even facebook now it's like our community. Well, facebook kind of pioneered the idea of community. I think, like they, I would say that, but I think we kind of took it and made it back to a thing.

Steven: 27:31

Now you're seeing, every brand is like oh, our community, our community, our community. How do we? And, yeah, because people want to feel belonging, and how many times do you see somebody with a band shirt? You're like, oh, you just look that person, like, oh, yeah, they, you know there's like there's, there's something just so innately human about that. Or somebody wearing something, a brand you love, or or the restaurant you go to, like these are all communities and I think there's it. How you unlock that, I think, is like this is paramount to how you build a successful company nowadays, no matter what you're doing absolutely.

Joeri: 28:09

Are we coming to the end of this podcast episode? Something I always like to ask, steven, is what are you now the most excited about to be? You know, for for your company, for for your own things, that you're working on the world in general Web3. I'm curious to hear that.

Steven: 28:27

I think, for I'm like really, really excited about where we're. I think the industry conversation is starting to filter a bit and I think we're seeing the use like we're seeing the use cases that we've kind of always known or they were obvious right there. It was always like well, yeah, stable for normal people, like stable people want to use, they wanted.

Steven: 28:51

They need a reason to like stable coins are a very easy reason of payments, or like such clear opportunities for our industry to do something different, especially companies like ours who are building ux. Like how do we where where we can go and innovate and make these things seamless and easy for the next wave of of consumers? Because I do think like people are going to come through if they have are going to come. It's not like crypto is not going to come to them. They're going to have to come to us and you have to kind of be where. That means like delivering experiences that they actually want, and I do. I really liked what it got taken, I think, out of context, but with jesse con. Jesse pollock was talking about this idea of you know, when there was a whole coining content thing. He's like he's not wrong, like he's right, like most normal people don't want to just speculate. They, they, they. They can do that on on betting apps all day. There's a million betting apps with a ton of users with better ux than we have. That that they can do that. But people we're not bringing in new users, so we need it will come through culture and it's like well, and I'm really excited. I don't know what that is yet and I do think, like we've we've had a taste of it with art, had a. Really I think it's. I think someone's going to do something really interesting on chain that will open up the doors to, I think, further adoption, and I think there's there's a lot of different ways, like I I think it has. It has to be a cultural experience, I think, like what Blackbird is doing with the restaurant, with restaurants, like there's something. These are the kinds of things that I think are just to me, more exciting and I think I also think the exciting thing is I think tradfi in our space are going to merge more and more and more and think, for an infrastructure company like ourselves, that is something we have to like. Really, really look at I think they will. You know, if robin hood says they're making, they're prioritizing this, they have the users already, they have great.

Steven: 30:38

You like the fintechs, which were a lot of the fintechs were like almost written off for a bit, and I think crypto is a is going to reignite a lot of like. I think fintech apps that have users already and have great ux. Well, how do you deliver defy activities. A lot of these users. They don't. They don't want to go buy bitcoin themselves, and that's okay. They don't want to go on coin. They don't want to do these things. They want to be where they are because it's safe. They feel trusted and I think there's a lot of opportunity for those of us who innately know the technology and the user experience to make that that more seamless.

Steven: 31:12

And I also think that there's going to be no. There's so many users already power users in crypto, like there's our spaces and like those people aren't going away and defy will grow in a value. There'll be all products for the power user, but the next wave of user won't be that. The growth audience won't be the power user. It'll be a more passive, I think passive user, and that's that's okay and we have to. We have to kind of build that person in mind, I think, more than we are currently absolutely well, I loved our conversation.

Joeri: 31:43

If people want to connect with you or want to know more about Reown, where would you like me to send them?

Steven: 31:49

Please reach out to me on Twitter. I'm X sorry, s Dolce Maschio, so feel free to DM me, give me a follow and, yeah, just reach out to me there, it's perfect.

Joeri: 31:58

And.

Steven: 31:58

Reown. We're Reown at Reown, underscore on X and Rioncom to learn more about what we're doing.

Joeri: 32:04

Absolutely. I'll definitely connect with you too, stephen. There will always. I always tell to my audience. There are show notes. There is a blog article linked to this podcast episode, so everything that Stephen mentioned resources or anything else you can find on that on that page. So thank you so much, stephen. It was really a pleasure to have you on the show.

Steven: 32:26

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. I really enjoyed our talk.

Joeri: 32:29

Guys, what an amazing conversation. I am absolutely sure that this conversation will resonate with other people around you, so I would advise you and encourage you to share this episode with people around you other entrepreneurs, people in Web3, people that are looking at Web3. If you're not following the show, as I always say, this is a really good moment to hit the subscribe button. If you haven't given me a review yet, these five stars could help you reach an even bigger audience and, of course, I'd like to see you back next time. Take care.