Melanie Borden: 0:00

If you think about what other people perceive you of all day long, you will go insane.

Joeri Billast: 0:06

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast. I'm your podcast host. And today I'm so excited to be joined by Melanie. Hey Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Borden: 0:19

Hi Joeri, how are you?

Joeri Billast: 0:21

I am good, Melanie. Already made my morning work here in Lisbon, where it is sunny. I see it's snowing over there where you are at.

Melanie Borden: 0:32

Yes, the never-ending snow and winter.

Joeri Billast: 0:36

Right. Yeah, guys, if you're now wondering who I am talking to, Melanie Borden is the founder of the Borden Group, an executive visibility advisory firm helping leaders translate expertise into measurable growth across modern search. She's a trusted personal brand strategist and GTM advisor for leaders to align their expertise with digital presence and future-proof their careers. I love that we have so much in common, Melanie, so I'm so excited to have you here. By the way, one thing we have in common too is that you have written a book, Theater of the Mind, explores the internal narratives that shape how leaders show up publicly. So where does feasibility really begin before strategy channels or even confidence enters the picture?

Melanie Borden: 1:28

It's such a good question. What I believe and what I've seen from the clients that I've worked with, and even going from my own personal experience, is that many times what happens is there's some sort of an event, whether it's something with the company. We are looking to launch a new product in Q2. We are positioning ourselves for IPO. Our competitors are doing this. There's generally something that happens in the market with the business that someone makes the decision, this is something that I need to do. And where do I go from here?

Joeri Billast: 2:09

In the book, you make a strong distinction between visibility with credibility and performative visibility. So, how can leaders sense when they are crossing that line without realizing it?

Melanie Borden: 2:24

This is the question of all questions, because what happens a lot of times is when it comes to posting on social platforms or when it comes to a newsletter or some sort of online publication that you're contributing on when there's a way to see someone's reaction. What will happen a lot of times is you start over-editing yourself in response to what other people are responding to. Meaning, if, for example, I post something or Joeri, you post something, you start making changes to the content that you're posting or your responses to the posting just to appeal to an algorithm. And that algorithm might be the applause from others, not necessarily tied to your goals, or not necessarily even tied to, you know, the content that you're speaking on. Or another example is completely changing your content to appeal or your strategy to appeal to an algorithm. But we all know that that spray and pray method when it comes to social doesn't work, especially if you're looking to convert it into something tangible, i.e., revenue for yourself at some point down the road. So that's that's the biggest thing that I would say that I see when it comes to someone who is hovering over that line is they're really just doing it to appease an algorithm.

Joeri Billast: 4:00

I see it a lot too. Certainly now with AI. You see that people are copying each other's posts. You will see that it's always the same on LinkedIn feed, the same frameworks, the same AI content.

Melanie Borden: 4:12

Yeah, I mean, and we're all guilty of it too. At one point or another, that dopamine that you get from the engagement is something that we've all been trained to want to appeal to. But as you and I both know, it's not always the vanity metrics that we're looking to achieve.

Joeri Billast: 4:33

Yeah, right. It's good for your ego, right? And you need a bit of engagement to be able to spread your message. But it's not with this kind of post that you create a trust. You know, I've written my own book, The Future CMO, which is now three months available on Amazon. It's also about trust. And I kept noticing that trust is not created by the content itself, but by what leaders do before they speak. Where do you see leaders unintentionally eroding trust long before they speak?

Melanie Borden: 5:06

That's a great question, also. One of the things that I've seen so much happen with some of the clients that I've worked with prior to them working with me, you know, as an example, if you make a decision to go to market as a company or let's say, for example, as a unit, whether it's a C-suite team, or even if you're just going on your own and you're not speaking on topics that you're well versed in, number one, people see that very quickly. Also, if you're creating a presence for yourself based on what you think you should be doing, based on what, let's say, for example, your customers are expecting from the leader of the company that they are partnered with. Another thing is not responding to customers. If you have a piece, an editorial, let's say an ed op that goes out and someone reaches out to you and compliments that piece and you don't respond to them, or your assistant responds to them. That's a way of eroding trust pretty quickly. And doing that at scale with on a platform like LinkedIn, everything is visible that you do. Every post that you do, every comment that you make, every reshare. It's all everyone can see it. And so if you're not responding as an executive to some of the commentary, it will erode trust pretty quickly.

Joeri Billast: 6:36

Yeah, and also the comments are very visible on LinkedIn. So the comments that you make on other people's posts also build, you know, your brand or how people see you. Now, many founders and CMOs feel pressured to be seen, but not fully understood. So, what internal misalignments tend to surface once someone steps into more public leadership?

Melanie Borden: 7:03

So, as an example to that, you know, internal alignment. Let's say, for example, you have spent the last 10 years climbing the ranks within your company, or perhaps you left to start your own company. And many times what will happen is who you are as a person hasn't necessarily caught up yet to the role that you have. And so this internal alignment with understanding is not necessarily to be bolder or to post more. It's really to close the gap between who you are and your career and how people are already responding to you. And when you can close that gap, essentially, it stabilizes and it feels more calm instead of a performance, which a lot of people ultimately feel that they are doing when it comes to being visible, whether it's in the media or it's on a social platform. So having that gap close definitely helps with presenting who you are to the public at scale.

Joeri Billast: 8:18

All my questions are linked to that, to your book and personal branding. You argue indeed that personal branding is leadership in public, not vanity. So how does a leader's internal identity directly shape the external signals people respond to?

Melanie Borden: 8:35

It's an this is another really great question. And it's something that happens even subconsciously, it's it's not something that you're performing, it's something that happens, it almost leaks out of you. So if you are posting content, if you are going on podcasts and you are not truly being yourself in your element, talking on subjects that you are knowledgeable in, if your internal message to yourself is, I need to be careful, I need to think about legal, I need to be liked, this is something that people pick up on and they pick up on it very quickly. And so when you have clarity about who you are, if you have clarity about what it is that you are the most knowledgeable on, if you can speak to it. And that's what always helps as well. If someone is looking to go to market as the thought leader in their industry, talking about the subjects that they are the most knowledgeable on, and understanding that it's not about you who you are, it's about leading and it's about sharing your content so it feels grounded and it feels as if it's something that is coming from a place of knowledge, not from a place of, I need to say this because if I don't, it's going to upset the board. Or if I don't talk about this in this particular manner, it's going to feel disagreeable instead of you know directional as an example.

Joeri Billast: 10:06

I also see that sometimes leaders are afraid to speak, are afraid to give their opinion because of political reasons. On my podcast, also, Melani, sometimes I have leaders from big companies that are on the stock market, and then you know they really need to be careful what they're saying or what can be said or not be said. But in your experience in general, what fears are most commonly keep experienced leaders from fully owning their voice, even when they have real expertise to share?

Melanie Borden: 10:41

The number one, the number one thing that I see is someone who is over-preparing, right? If someone is going back into the draft and rewriting it or re-editing it, or as another example, which is something that I have seen happen multiple times, is sharing a document with multiple people on the same C-suite team to edit somebody's posts, right? So just over-preparing, over-editing, delaying because they feel that they're not ready or it's it's not the right time yet. Or another example is knowing the guidelines and the guardrails, so to speak, for the company, but still, you know, wanting to push it through legal for legal to say, no, you can't do this, or we have to edit this. You know, someone's in-house counsel is not necessarily going to match the voice of someone who's on the forefront of tech as an example, because it's just not going to match. So people come up with reasons to delay and to not do it because of the fear of being judged, the fear of upsetting their shareholders, um, the fear of really saying the wrong thing or upsetting someone, or what we talked about before, just not having that alignment internally yet with who they are in their career. And that's very common.

Joeri Billast: 12:05

Yeah, for me, actually, I also give keynotes. And because my memory is not so good, I don't prepare everything literally as I'm going to say it. I just know the concept, and you know, it's not always perfect English because English is not my native language, but you know, I explain everything from my heart, from how I feel it. Whereas if I would learn it by heart, it would not be so authentic. Now, these days we have AI. I wanted to ask, of course, something about that. AI reshapes search as we all know it, it reshapes search, credibility, and perception. So, what human qualities become more valuable rather than less in how leaders communicate and build authority now?

Melanie Borden: 12:50

Integrity of voice. And that comes down to storytelling, but not storytelling for the performance and the engagement, but storytelling because those stories are unique to that individual person. And it's something that when you have presence, AI cannot create presence. Yes, you can absolutely create content with AI, but responding to people, being alive with people and just sharing your perspective and your voice is something that AI can't duplicate. It can't replicate. You could certainly use it as a thought partner. You can use it in ways to build your strategy. But at the end of the day, you're directing it to help you craft your message in a certain way, not share the story that you've had the lived experience with.

Joeri Billast: 13:50

Yeah, that's the best way to use it. Like if I can mention my book again, you know how hard it is to write a book, Melanie. I've seen your post on LinkedIn, how much time it took. Because as an author, you never know, is this good enough for people? And so it was Mark Schaefer. Come on, friend, said to me, Joeri, why don't you write a book? You have the keynote, you have the podcast. And then I took my keynote or my ideas from my keynote, and supported by everyone that came on my podcast, people like you that share their knowledge. And so AI is really good at doing that, looking for trends and looking for frameworks and see what people are saying that is supporting my vision, and that's how I used AI to support me. But it's still my voice and my words. Now, you talk about building a synchronized searchable presence. How can leaders now do that without turning themselves into a diluted or overly performative brands?

Melanie Borden: 14:51

This is the magic question, because everyone who is a creator, executives included, experience burnout at some point from content creation, content ideation, just general building online and being on screens, it creates a tremendous amount of weight on your brain, essentially. So setting up non-traditional KPIs is a place that I believe is a great way, in addition to having the team and the systems and the processes. So there are some non-traditional KPIs that I really like to talk to my clients about and that I like to talk to people about when they ask me, how do I do this without being completely overwhelmed and oversaturated because I am so busy working on X, Y, and Z that I don't have time for this. So a couple of things that I would strongly recommend is number one, essentially they're dark social indicators, right? So number one would be people who are DMing you, people who are texting you as one, right? When you first are showing up online, that's one of the first things that happens is you find people who are supportive of you and they're gonna be public about it. You have those people who are DMing you. Another KPI that I also look to as a positive metric are those who are being negative, right? So writing negative reviews, writing negative comments. People do not say things that are negative about someone who isn't making an impact. And a lot of times we get caught up in the negativity because it doesn't feel good. No matter how strong you are, no matter how much you don't care, if someone is saying something negative about your company, about your work, about your team, about you as a person, it doesn't feel good about your content. But I look to that as positive because of the fact that it means you are creating and you are making impact. You also have a uh one of the key pieces that isn't necessarily showing up in a dashboard are the people who are silent. But then all of a sudden, in two or three years, they reach out to you and say, I saw your piece on X, Y, and Z. I've been following your content on LinkedIn and we should have a conversation. That's a positive KPI, and it's not necessarily a traditional one that you would see in a dashboard, you know, that your growth team is looking at every single week. So those are just a couple, but those people that create fear, uncertainty, and doubt to me is one of the biggest ones because it's one of the first signals to me that what you're doing is working and that it's landing because people don't come after those who are not making an impact. And it's a hard lesson to learn if it's something you've never dealt with, but it's one that you can easily overcome by just adjusting the way that you look at it.

Joeri Billast: 18:05

It's really interesting the things that you said then. And I've I've experienced those same things. You know, I'm Belgian, I live in Portugal, I feel like I get engagement, people reach out to me from all over the world, but not so much from Belgium. But then I see that my visitors on my blog, my list to my podcast. There are a lot of Belgians listening. Then when I go to Belgian, people speak to me. Oh, I read your book, I'll listen to your podcast. They don't engage, but they they they see me. Another thing that you said is, yeah, I have my book, which I always love for people to give a review. 29 very positive, and one bad review, and the bad review didn't make any sense for me. I could not learn from that. And of course, that one review, you know, has a bigger impact than those 29 that are positive. And okay, I just take it as it comes, and it means that I'm making an impact. So with your book, you know, Melanie, you can expect the same things that people will be applauding for you and thinking that you're doing a good job, and you have other people that might not agree or might be less positive, but that's how it is.

Melanie Borden: 19:15

It's it is how it is. And what I would say is to me, negativity equals something really positive is coming. And if you can reframe your thinking, that anytime something negative happens, it's a KPI for something positive. It completely changes the way that you experience your own visibility. Because there is always going to be someone who is not going to like your perspective. They're not going to like the things that you say, they disagree with you. But it's really about them and their own experiences and less about us. So the person that wrote that negative review, he's reviewing himself or herself, the person who, you know, themselves, they they're reviewing not you, but their perception of themselves is what they're reviewing, not you.

Joeri Billast: 20:10

Yeah, and it's interesting because then I went to have a look at other marketing authors, and they all have that, right? There's always a few people that do that. Now, another question that I have when leaders get visibility right internally, what changes first inside the organization before any pipeline or GTM impact shows up?

Melanie Borden: 20:36

There's so much positivity that comes internally when you decide to have this initiative happening. I mean, the bottom line is that it just multiplies. Number one, you're leading by example. So automatically, the team is looking to you and saying, wow, if they can do that, I can do that too. And you're essentially giving permission by doing that and creating a nurturing, a positive psychological environment for someone else who would like to do the same. It also, as a direct result, helps with employee retention and acquisition. Something that I have seen firsthand by a number of my clients is when the leadership team steps forward, there are those who work under them that will say, Hey, I want to do this too. And maybe at that time they had been thinking, I don't know if this company is right for me. I don't know if the culture is right. But when you create that internal alignment, it just creates magic. It helps with the customer perspective and experience too. Your customers now are seeing you more than just a logo and about us. They're seeing the leadership or the employees at the company who are also leaders as. Well, if they if someone is willing to take the time to step out and to display their thoughts and what they're passionate about and what they're knowledgeable in and how it can help others, you're just creating this wave because what it does is all of a sudden, when you have your employees seeing you do this, and you're the CEO or you're the CMO or you're in the C-suite or you're in the board, and all of a sudden your team members are doing this as well, you're creating impact at scale. It has a wave effect because you all work for the same company. You all are talking about similar topics. You are all working in the same industry. And so what happens is it creates this wave of visibility that you didn't even think would happen as a direct result. That's not paid. It's organic, it's natural, it's something that happens just from doing. And so those are really the positives that I would say happen. But, you know, employee acquisition is another big part of it. And as and also client retention and acquisition, too. So there are so many positives that can happen when you're looking at it from that lens and you do create the right environment for the people that work for you.

Joeri Billast: 23:21

I know that now. We are all busy, very busy. Everyone that is working in marketing. It's interesting to see how much time we spend on our computers. Therefore, I live here now in Sintra. I've participated myself in retreats. I'm organizing my own retreat. Reflection always helps you to unlock strategy, often faster than execution ever could. Why do you think that leaders rarely give themselves the space to hear their own thinking anymore?

Melanie Borden: 23:54

A lot of times they are, in my opinion, born with the year 19 in their birth year, right? And so speaking from personal experience and speaking from clients that I've worked with, the the misalignment from their career to who they are, where they don't necessarily see themselves yet as that person. So they haven't positioned themselves because it's not something that we were innately brought into the world with. Whereas, you know, if you were born after the year 2000, technology has been something that has been a part of your life. But if you weren't like us, you don't view the world the same way. It's something that you have to learn. It's something that you have to train on. It's a different muscle, right? If you're working out, if you're looking to lose weight, you don't necessarily, you know, all of a sudden become a bodybuilder or go to a fitness competition or run a marathon. You have to train for it. So they need to just look at things from a different lens and say, okay, this is something that I have to train for moving forward.

Joeri Billast: 25:07

Yeah, every generation has its thing. Now, coming back to your book writing adventure, I'm curious because I I also have, you know, this experience. And when you write the book, you know, you find out things. So I'm curious. What surprised you the most during the process?

Melanie Borden: 25:26

What surprised me the most was the imposter syndrome that I developed. That I, when I started writing the book, I did not even think imposter syndrome was much of a thing. I thought it was a trendy term that people threw around. And I really didn't believe that it was something that I ever had or that I had. But when we talk about that internal alignment and, you know, when you have success in a short period of time, a lot of times who you are as a person doesn't catch up to where you are. And so what I was finding during writing the book that I wasn't where I thought I was. I never took the time to say, wow, this is something that bothers me. Because I kept thinking to myself, who's gonna read this? How do I know that I know the most on this? Even though I have worked on so many projects and I feel that I am perfectly skilled to be able to lead on this at any point in time. I started doubting myself a lot while I was writing the book. And one thing led to another. I ended up rewriting my book three times during the process, during this whole 18-month process. And I laugh because it changed the book. It completely changed the book because I talked from my experience, which also was the experience of many of the people who I've worked with. And so what I originally went to write about the book, you know, what the book was originally about, in essence, is the same as the final result, but more of what I experienced helped infuse the book to make it more relatable and understandable, in my opinion, because I was writing as I was going through it. And I got to the other side by the time I finished. And that was the biggest victory for me was getting through that period. But it is definitely, if you want to challenge yourself, write a book.

Joeri Billast: 27:34

What you described, Melanie, is actually when I lifted my first book, The 5K Challenge for Solopreneurs. It also took me three years to finish it and to rewrite it. And first it was in Dutch and then in English, and then I had the coach and then the new insights, and then the world changed. That's the whole story. And now with my new book, of course, second time, it goes faster. So, yeah, and writing a book is really exciting. Now, at the end of this podcast episode, I would like to ask you for the founders, the CMOs that are navigating these new technologies like Web3, AI, there is constant visibility pressure. What single mindset shift would most change how they lead and show up this year?

Melanie Borden: 28:23

Remind yourself of the wins that you have. And it's not necessarily something that we even consciously see ourselves doing, but when you have people looking at you constantly, it will come up, it will bubble up inside of you, whether it's making much of an impact or not. Remind yourself, if it does come up, of what you have achieved. In the book, I talk about how I have these two binders that I started in 2002. So, not to date myself, but every single thing that I've ever done that I've been proud of in my career, I have in binders. And I print things out. I've printed things out from LinkedIn. I've printed out comments, I've printed out emails, I have awards, I have letters that have been written, I have emails that have been sent to me. Anything that I am proud of, I see. And I, when I went through the process of writing this book, that was one of the mindset shifts that I had to remind myself is I do have this experience. I can't, if you think about what other people perceive you of all day long, you will go insane. And so when you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, I did achieve this. This is what I've done. I know what I'm talking about. They don't know my background and they don't know who I am. They're making judgments based on what they're seeing, but that's based on their own experiences. It's not based on mine. So making that shift of remembering who you are and what you stand for is something that sounds basic because it is, but it's something that a lot of people forget, especially those who have had a lot of success, those that are in these roles, because they're just supposed to have that. But that's not always the case because where they are in their career isn't always necessarily where they are internally.

Joeri Billast: 30:18

Yeah. And then it's good to have these books, like you see them on my background. It helps me reminding what I did, what I am. Also books that inspired me from other people. Melanie, wow, the time really flew having you on the podcast. If people they want if they want to follow you, if they want to buy your book, Melanie, where would you like me to send them?

Melanie Borden: 30:42

So if they would like to buy the book, they can find it anywhere online. Books are sold. Amazon is probably the easiest. If you type up Melanie Borden in Amazon, my book, Theater of the Mind, will come up. If you are looking to connect with me, LinkedIn, Melanie Borden, and on Instagram at human tobrand, and my website is humintobrand.com.

Joeri Billast: 31:03

Amazing. As my listeners know, Melanie, there are always show notes. There is a blog article linked to this podcast episode. So if you're now listening in the car or on a walk, go to web3.net and you find all the links that Melanie has mentioned. They will be mentioned in the blog article over there. Melanie, it was really a pleasure to have you on the show.

Melanie Borden: 31:28

Thank you so much for having me, Joeri.

Joeri Billast: 31:31

Guys, what an amazing episode. So, I would say go to Amazon and find Melanie there. Get a book. If you think that these episodes is useful for people around you, be sure to share this episode with them, your neighbor, a marketer, other entrepreneurs, people in your company. If you're not yet subscribed to the show, this is a really good moment to do this. As I always say, if you haven't given me a review yet, this would really help me if you could give me these five stars to reach an even bigger audience. And of course, I would like to see you back next time. Take care.