Retreat Setup And Why It Matters

Mark Schaefer 0:00

He said I am 80% replaced. Now that does seem terrifying, but the more important question is what's the 20%?

Joeri Billast 0:08

This wasn't recorded in studio, it happened during Sintra Synergies. My private retreat in Sintra, where a small group of agency owners and marketing leaders spend a few days talking about AI trust feasibility and what the future of marketing really looks like. Mark Schaefer joined us for a private fireside conversation. And instead of keeping that only inside the room, I wanted to share some of the strongest moments with you here. Hello everyone. We are here at the Sintra Synergies Retreat. My name is Joeri and I'm with Mark. Mark, how are you this morning? Couldn't be better. And we have a lot of people here around the table. Good morning everyone.

Group 0:58

Hi.

The Psychology Shift Behind AI

Joeri Billast 0:59

I have a few questions for you, and maybe there are people here who will want to chime in, Mark. Let's start with the first one. We already you know discussed yesterday at the dinner. But if you zoom out, what is the biggest shift happening in marketing right now? And yeah, that people probably still underestimate.

Cognitive Surrender And Decision Makers

Brand And Word Of Mouth Overrides

Mark Schaefer 1:20

There are a lot. There are a lot. Um I think one of the things I think people are really not thinking about right now is the psychology of AI. So everywhere we go, we're talking about the prompts and the new technology and the new apps. But what we're seeing is that AI is rewiring the psychology of humans in real time. It's happening right before our eyes. And I think uh so I wrote this little book last year, How AI is changing our customers, based on this research of 300 futurists. And they were looking to answer this question how will AI change humanity by 2035? Which seems like an impossible question. But they actually had consensus on some things. And one of the things that I think is most impactful for marketing is this idea of cognitive offloading, where we're beginning to trust AI more and more. And so AI is the is really become the decision maker. And I saw a term the other day that I think is even better. This person said that people aren't just offloading their cognitive processes to AI. It's it's cognitive surrender. That the AI is just becoming part of their everyday experience. And so in the in my in the book that I wrote, I characterize this as that we're all in the diaper business now. And so what do I mean by that? So I have this you know new grandchild, and he's a lovely trout. He's amazing in so many ways, and he is an expert pooper. He does really, really well with that. So he goes through a lot of diapers, and he's the end user of the diaper. But if you wanted to market the diapers, you have to appeal to the decision maker. That's mom and dad. Well, it's the same way, is that increasingly the decision maker are not our customers. The decision maker is AI. And we're just abdicating our our agency, our human agency, our human decision making to AI. And so we're we're in the diaper business now. Everybody's in the diaper business. We're not marketing to the end user anyway. And and the other thing I would say, just to build on that a little bit, is that a lot of the focus, I think, is on what are they calling now? Is that not not SEO, but AEO or whatever they're calling it? GEO. GEO, okay. And um, so and that's appropriate, but it's still sort of the same game as SEO, where there's gonna be probably the most powerful people with the biggest budgets. They're gonna it's gonna be this uh the biggest, baddest, meanest junkyard dogs fighting for that AEO. And we we also need to look at what are the overrides. So that's an important part of marketing that I think people are overlooking is the focus is on how do we game the system to you know to win the diaper business. And we're not, and and so an example would be uh last year I went to to Paris and I and I went to ChatGPT and I said, I'm gonna go to Paris for five days, plan this trip for me. So did a beautiful job, told me where to go, what to see, what time to go, the best times to go, the metro stations I need to go to, how many steps from the metro station, and I said, at each stop, give me a gluten-free restaurant as well. And it did a perfect job. However, I also said, I'm going to fly Delta Airlines and I want to stay at this kind of hotel. So brand is more important than ever. So the traditional parts of marketing, like branding, are more important than ever. That's an override. If we love a brand, then it doesn't matter what AI says, we're still going to connect with that brand. So a lot of the traditional aspects of marketing that we've been working on forever are still really important, perhaps more important than ever. The other thing that I think is also often overlooked is when I went to this trip, a friend of mine said, uh, she lives in France. She said, Oh, well, you must go. She's gluten-free too. She said, You must go to this gluten-free bakery in Paris. It is the best in the world. Not only did I go there, I went there twice because it really was amazing. So this is a small bakery. It's never going to win the AI game, right? But it won the word-of-mouth marketing game. Right? It meant something to this person. And whenever AI suggests something, I'm going to consider it. But whenever a person says it, I'm going to do it. So in this AI world, branding is more important, word-of-mouth marketing is more important. And I think where, you know, a lot of the focus on marketing is the tricks to try to become the answer when we've got a lot of tools at our disposal already with branding and word-of-mouth marketing that can be the override that can win the game. So I think that's something that's that's being overlooked right now.

Joeri Billast 6:48

Yeah. Another thing you mentioned speed. Today there is also the fact that AI can do so much work and automate work. You see a lot of even more than before, automated messages that you get. Um, I know for you, human connection is something really important. So, how should leaders actually balance automation on the one side with authentic evil connection on the other side?

Mark Schaefer 7:15

Well, I think there's two two parts to that. I think the first part is that I think in the very near future, human connection will be a luxury. I mean, it'll be it'll be weird. Uh I heard this quote that uh said in the future. Uh Matt Matt will like this one. In the future, thinking is what the weird people will do. I mean, that's quite it's quite an interesting quote, isn't it? Yeah. And uh so one of the things, again, this sort of reinforces something I said earlier is to really see if maintaining human connection is part of your differentiation. If that's the luxury that you offer, don't screw that up. Maybe it's even an opportunity. So I think that's one part of it. I think another part of it is that um, you know, I believe very strongly that the most human company will win. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be human. Uh I think the most human company in the future could be a combination of humans and AI making the company more responsive, listening better, uh, you know, maybe, maybe being more patient. I think where we're seeing that take hold a lot is of customer service. If you can train AI to be the best customer service person you've ever had, and then you just scale that, you know, in most cases, wouldn't that help you be more responsive, more friendly, more accessible? So I think in the future, the most human company will win, but it's gonna probably be a combination of humans and AI in a lot of places. You just have to have discernment as to where that human connection really makes the difference and don't let that go. I think our the danger is we're gonna become so intoxicated with the technology. Well, it's already happening. We're so intoxicated with the technology, we all you know, we just want to implement it without really considering um what are we gonna mess up?

Joeri Billast 9:30

It's probably you'll be will mix AI in there too, Mark, but it's one of my favorite topics. Um actually, I attended Mark's personal branding class like in 2022, and I know probably what he's going to say. Uh he's still teaching the class. But uh for people now, Mark, uh, if you had to rebuild your personal brands today, what would you do differently?

The 20% That Stays Human

Why Field Research Still Wins

Mark Schaefer 10:52

Uh well, the first thing I do is uh is I would read my book so I wouldn't spend so many years struggling and floundering around, which we all did. You know. Um we talked a little bit about that last night. Um, that when I started creating content, the only option we had was blogging. And so I you know I became a blogger, but you know, video is so important today, and it's it's you know, it's it's not my natural thing. Um so I probably would do um more video, but the other thing is um I was resistant to building a personal brand. I did not have a my my photo, my a photo of myself on my website until 2016. Oh wow because I just I just didn't want to be the center of attention. I just you know I wanted to build a company. And finally, around 2016, I realized that people, you know, people don't love a logo, they don't love a website, they love a person. And and the trust was was in me. And um uh and there's risk in that. You know, Loretta was mentioning, you know, how how much do you put yourself up front and rather than the agency? But it's just like that's what the world was saying. That's what the world was they, you know, we want, we want you, we like you, we're gonna give you business because we trust you. And you know, what was happening is my brand was increasing. I didn't even have to bid anymore. People would just say, I want you, because it is about trust. So I was I resisted it for many, many years. And then I realized there's there's this, there's just a great power to uh to to being uh the uh someone that that you that is trusted. And I think in the AI world, this is gonna be uh even more important because I think AI is sort of coming at our skill sets. In some cases, it's coming at our jobs, but in every single industry, we will still turn to uh a trusted person to help us navigate. Uh I some of you probably know this story, especially if you've heard my speeches, but I think a great, my favorite story about this was when um ChatGPT first came out. I was looking at this thing and I immediately saw, wow, uh this is going to have an impact on everything. And I called uh a friend of mine, he's a famous tech analyst in New York, Shelly Palmer. He's done it all, seen it all. And I said, What do you think about this? He said, I just tried it out. He said, I'm terrified. He said, I have blogged every day of my life for 15 years, and I just asked ChatGPT to write this certain blog post in my voice, and it did it in three seconds. He said, I am 80% replaced. Now that does seem terrifying, but the more important question is what's the 20%? That's his personal brand. A I can't touch it. He is known, he is trusted, he is beloved. People will always read his blog, they will always read his books, they will always go to his speeches because he is the go-to person in his industry. You know, I I I I'm not really worried. I think people will read my blogs on my blog post now. I have a little badge that says 100% human content. To assure people this is me, I'm not going away. That's a luxury, right? That's the luxury I was talking about. That you really are getting a real person here. You don't have to use waste brain power to try to figure out if I copied something else. Uh so um I think uh we we we it's more important than ever. I think personal branding. I mean, I I every time I have an opportunity, even if with with students or whoever I'm talking to, I just beg people to work on their personal brand. It's an insurance policy for your career. Hey, legislation is going to change here, so you can like input on what's going to change in their line of business, for example. I will add that I think one concern I have is that we overrely on AI for research. And because, like I have friends that are in market researchers in America and their work is just dragging up. Everybody's going to AI and they're they're saying, well, you know, it's an 85% solution. You know, we we can get 85% of the way there and save all this money. But my concern is number one, that's the solution that your competitors have to. So if you can do it, they could do it. So how are you really going to get an insight? And the other thing I think about, just from my own personal experience with market research, is the things that really change a business, it's not something you see in a survey. It's just not something you can get from analyzing public data. You go out and you visit the customer, and you hear something or you see something that opens your mind to some new possibility. I mean, literally, I've had experiences that have completely revolutionized a business or a company because I was out there talking to the customers in live. And and and there was, you know, there was one example I wrote about recently where I was out doing customer research and we were visiting customers from all around the world, and it was like the last comment in the last meeting. Some developer said, Did you happen to see this research report? What? And it was like this research report that could have changed our whole industry, and it was like a preliminary thing that the government was working on. And so we got a head start on that, and it just literally saved our company, but that never would have come out with anything AI could have ever given us. So, you know, sometimes 85% is okay, but what's real, and I know there's a cost that comes with that, but but getting out and talking to people and meeting people, you know, there's that's part of the human luxury, I guess.

Group 18:04

Yeah.

Mark Schaefer 18:04

That we might be missing. It's the researcher that you should use a tool and use the 20% of top.

Joeri Billast 18:10

Yeah, yeah. It's down to 15 now here. From 20 to 50.

Mark Schaefer 18:16

Yeah, it's my own number.

Make Marketing People Want To Share

Matt Wilkinson 18:19

I I I definitely think it's the um that there's a lot of stuff that AI can do, which is you know, within within the uh you know, the knowledge base that it's already got, which is what's available, what was available during data. The voice of customer piece is is really important. And I and I when I say voice of customer, I'm sort of thinking more of the ethnography, the the as you say, walking in the customer's huge gaining system. That bit, I don't think, even sort of most market research captures the real essence of. I think that's where you really need to go in, you know, visiting customers and seeing the stress and pain that somebody had when they were trying to enter in a really complicated string of um uh letters for you know, sort of a sequence of DNA, and making sure they were copying and pasting the right thing when they're placing an order. Because if they get it wrong, that's not just a failed order with you know a financial cost, it's weeks and weeks of work. So they found that incredibly stressful. So if they were saying they were reordering it over and over again, being able to just take return, you know, or sort of reorder was a huge thing. I know we're talking in comments here, but I never would have seen that that stress and kind of upset without going in and actually speaking to somebody. Like an big observation that I've had is just how energizing it is to be in a room with all of you, and um you know I think we can get too stuck in our own little world of delivery, and so that's why I wanted to come here and so the energy in the room is um it's it's really wonderful. So that that human connection and that community is um is so powerful. So thank you.

Joeri Billast 20:05

Thank you for coming. Uh yeah, Mark, do you have a question for the world observation already when you heard all this on all this conversation? Well, I think it's because uh Mark, if there is one mindset, mindset shift you would want to leave the group with for the next lot of months. What would it be?

Retreat Invitation And Closing

Mark Schaefer 20:25

Well, um so one thing I've been talking a lot about is um there was this great study done by McKinsey over 10 years. It looked at like 200,000 customer journeys, and what they found, what they were able to codify, is that most of the sales isn't really coming from marketing. Two-thirds of the sales were coming from what people were telling each other. It was either through what they're seeing on social media, through word of mouth, through testimonies, through reviews. And uh I think that number might even be greater today if you if you just think about why did I buy something? Oh, it's because I heard it from this or I saw it, someone posted it, someone sent it to me, because that's really where the trust comes. And so it it sort of uh implies that the most effective marketing we could do is to create something so interesting and so worthy that people can't wait to tell it to other people. And that that that's not really where most marketing mindsets are. It's still about beating our chest and telling everybody how how great we are. I think an overlooked opportunity is experiential marketing, is to is to create events where people can see you and meet you and and become so excited. And I think another part of that is brand communities. You know, if you if you have a brand community, uh, which is a very, very big idea, at least in America, with like 80% of startups right now start with brand community as their marketing strategy, where you where you bring people into the process who are naturally going to be excited about you and promote you and talk to you. So I think that's really the mindset of switching from um thinking about you know telling everybody how great we are to like writing the script, but passing the mic to somebody else. That's really how marketing is working today. Based on you know, creating a story that's so interesting and worthy and compelling that people are excited to talk about it. So I think that's you know, that's uh that's a big part of it. And then something that we've kind of already talked about. Is this idea that the most human company wins? I really believe that's always going to be the case. And it's something that we've kind of taken our eye off that ball because again, we're becoming so intoxicated with technology. We're going to abdicate to technology. We're going to be lazy with technology. We're going to turn things over to AI that we should not be turning over to AI. And we just can't forget that the most human company wins, which could be a combination of humans and AI.

Joeri Billast 23:29

If conversations like this matter to you, that's exactly why Sintras Synergies exists. If you're interested in joining one of the next retreats, send me a message. And I hope to see you back for the next podcast episode. Take care.