Why Reality Feels Uncertain Online

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 0:00

in the era of AI, it's really hard to even know what is real anymore. So, I've been working on creating an internet where you can believe what you see and trust and, you know, be able to verify everything.

Joeri Billast 0:13

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast. I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really excited to be joined by Anthony, also known as Burnt. Hey, Anthony, how are you?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 0:26

I'm doing great, Joeri. How are you?

Joeri Billast 0:29

Very good. Very good. Uh, excited. Uh, guys, if you're now wondering who am I speaking with today? Well, Anthony Anzalone, he's known to many as Burnt Banksy. He's the founder and CEO of Verona, a decentralized network of verified information built to power the next generation of AI agents. And, you know, Anthony, as my listeners know, I dive straight in and feel free to explain a bit what you're doing while you're telling your story. of course, what people might know you about, might know you from is, yeah, is from, you know, what you did,

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 1:05

Burning the Banksy.

Joeri Billast 1:07

yeah, burning a $95,000 Banksy, and it made you famous

Burning Banksy And Digital Ownership

Joeri Billast 1:13

for challenging digital ownership. how did that moment lead to the much bigger question of how we prove what is real in digital spaces?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 1:26

Yeah. I mean, all great questions. So for those of you who aren't aware of my name, I go by Burnt Banksy online. Back in two thousand and twenty-one, I bought a Banksy art piece, ninety-five thousand, lit it on fire, sold it as an NFT. NFTs were nothing at the time, so we ended up selling it for about four hundred thousand. We broke every record for NFTs at the time. and I've been in love with crypto since. And so how that kind of manifested was... I think the, the core aspect of crypto is verification at the end of the day, right? And I think what I was trying to challenge was the verification of, let's call it prominence, right? Like, is this the real art piece? You know, you could Google a photo of the Mona Lisa, but that doesn't mean you have the digital ownership to the Mona Lisa. you know, and I think the world of the digital age is still kind of coming to itself, and I think in the era of AI, it's really hard to question... to even know what is real anymore. So, you know, I've been working on creating an internet where you can believe what you see and trust and, you know, be able to verify everything. So, it's been a Herculean effort, for the past five years. We've raised about, oh, a little over thirty-six million dollars, millions of accounts. I'm working with amazing brands like Uber, Nike, and about three million verified data points stored on chain, just absolutely doing awesome

Joeri Billast 2:42

Wow. Yeah. it's, amazing figures. Now, you originally, I think it's called Byel-- built, Xion or Zion,

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 2:50

Yep

Joeri Billast 2:50

a wallet-less layer one, now it is evolving into Verona. So what did you see changing in the market that convinced you that verification and AI agents represented the bigger opportunity?

From Xion Infrastructure To Verona

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 3:05

Yeah, I mean, all, all the infrastructure we still use, right? So it's like, if you were to look at it, like Zion was an infrastructure company, and we wanted to make it streamlined tools, extremely accessible, and we succeeded, and we did it. But, you know, I think just the application of that needed to exist. It needed to exist in kind of this modern world, as I said. And so Verona exists in this kind of application of these tools, right? We're not going around saying, "Oh, wallet-less, gas-less." It's just that by default, and we understand that we need to talk to people in kind of what the benefit is, right? and where that kind of exists. And so that transition, in a way, to like Verona, it's a very beautiful city in Italy. You know, obviously, Romeo and Juliet is based there, and it's kind of the antithesis of AI, which is just like, in my mind, this beautiful garden city that's true, it's historic, and, you know, it, it's against this kind of this AI slop that we see.

Joeri Billast 3:56

Yeah. stop there, you said it. now, you described, or you recently described verified data

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 4:05

Mhm

Joeri Billast 4:06

becoming one of internet's most valuable and scarce resources. Why do you think that verification becomes more valuable as AI content abundant?

Why Verified Data Becomes Scarce

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 4:20

Well, I think it's like, you know, it, it really is just the, the ultimate, thesis of the Internet, right? it's becoming a cesspool, and, I think crypto originally started in this era of verification, right? And at first it was a verification of money. And you see the economy that was built on that, which is, hey, once I can verify, effectively where every dollar is in this currency, we can build so much on that. We could build DeFi, and then RWA, and everything really strung from just knowing. So it's like you need to have a foundation of trust in order to build on top of. And we saw this with Crypto 1.0, which is, like, DeFi. But now bringing this to just any everyday fact, right, of saying, great, if I know something is true, I can operate on that. You know, if I know that you, are over six feet tall or, or anything arbitrary, if I know you ride this much on Uber, or you wear these Nike shoes, right? Like, you can bring the concepts that crypto originally taught us and absolutely blow it up to a huge proportion, where now you actually can have an Internet where it's usable, and you don't have to get drowned out in this cesspool of just lying

Joeri Billast 5:26

Yeah. Now, Verona positions itself as an intelligence layer for AI agents.

What AI Agents Need To Act

Joeri Billast 5:35

What does an AI agent actually need to know or prove before we trust it to make decisions or take actions on our behalf?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 5:44

I mean anything really. Like I think that whether it be you're in the market for new shoes and you've boughten, you know, five pair of On Clouds and it's just like, "Hey dude, do you want another pair?" or your financial actions, you know, how old you are so that you can make different financial decisions, you know. It's fine, like I think AI is very fine, but I think having the context allows it to make more intelligent decisions. And I think in the beginning we would say we were making AI intelligent, which providing it that context and being able to have this kind of use case, not only strengthens kind of the models, but then allows humans to actually operate with AI agents in a secure way, and that's not getting absolutely steamrolled

Joeri Billast 6:22

Now, zero-knowledge proofs allow an agent to act on sensitive information without accessing the underlying records. new use cases become possible when we can prove something is true without revealing the data itself?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 6:41

You know, it's kind of one of

Zero Knowledge Proofs For Privacy

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 6:42

the core thesises, and I think building as a, as an original Web3 blockchain company, you need to keep the ethos alive. And just because, you know, we're at a point where now everyone in the world doesn't need to see your information, you can provide proofs. So you could get the benefits of something without actually exposing something. And I think that's extremely important if we wanna actually move forward as, like, a society, right? Otherwise, you have information that's going everywhere that shouldn't get access to everyone, and I think you should have access and the right to your own information. And listen, if people want to know it, you can show them the proof, but it really shouldn't be-- they shouldn't need to see all the information, right? Like, you know, i-i-if I'm on a, an alcohol website, you don't need, you don't need my ID. You just need to know that I'm over 21, in America, right? And there's a lot of aspects like this, especially in, you know, countries where, let's say, you know, having a passport for voting is really good, but, you know, if you wanna vote for the wrong party, you don't really wanna be seen voting for the wrong party. you know, so there's a lot of different applications of privacy, and it's, it's absolutely insane that this hasn't hit the more mainstream zeitgeist.

Joeri Billast 7:47

Yeah. you mentioned trust already.

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 7:51

Mhm

Joeri Billast 7:51

a lot today about bots, deepfakes, fake credentials, and ad fraud. Where do you think that the internet's trust problem is actually the most underestimated today?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 8:04

I think people

Where Trust Breaks Down In Practice

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 8:05

don't even know really. Like I think that the trust problem is, probably seen the most in just fraud rates, right? Like the ability to just upload a document that's super easy to falsify, being able to, you know... I mean, the amount of cybercrime is absolutely-- for cyber fraud is absolutely massive, right? And I think that like, you know, maybe the word isn't like under, underrepresented, but you can see it in the financial transactions because that's just where it appears. But, you know, anyone, you know, whether it just be catfishing or, you know, just lying who you say online, it's just-- the internet is conducive to lying because there's no benefits to not lie.

Joeri Billast 8:47

Question, y-your work on chain abstraction, was about making blockchain disappear into the user experience. what did that teach you about getting mainstream consumers and businesses to adopt complex technology without needing to understand the infrastructure underneath?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 9:07

I think we learned really early on that people don't give a shit about crypto. Sorry if I can't curse on this, but, like, no one cares. No one cares about crypto, except for crypto, and we learned really early on that we can't go into a company and say, "We're a crypto company." We need to walk with our benefits first, right? And this is how we're able to get over a hundred and thirty brands with sixty million dollars in committed revenue. Like, you know, being able to do that,

Mainstream Adoption Through Chain Abstraction

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 9:30

you can't do that by saying, "We're a crypto company." Otherwise, you're gonna end up paying that company, and you have to go through a process, and people have already lost money, and there's no reason to do it. And often the reason is because they don't actually have a benefit, so they obscure the benefit with the technical complexities. So it's like if you actually have something to sell, then great. The underlying tech doesn't actually matter. and if you do have to say that it's crypto, it's probably something that you're hiding

Joeri Billast 9:55

Yeah. Now, let's talk about, Verona, eh? Verona's verification technology, it already reaches millions of users and more than 150 global brands. So what have those enterprise deployments taught you about where blockchain and verification create genuine business value rather than, yeah, simple

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 10:19

I mean,

Joeri Billast 10:20

novelty?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 10:21

you named it, right? Like it's about the value that you can provide. And in our case, it's like we can provide you information on your competitors', users, right? So like Uber, for instance, we could tell you all of Lyft's riders effectively, and how much they've ridden. You know, which of course it's opt-in, but like how much they've ridden if they're a Lyft rider, and be able to verify that information so we can go to Uber and say, "Yeah, this person is perfect for you to poach as a user," and then they would pay them

Joeri Billast 10:51

Mentioned trust already a few times. it's almost in every episode that I have today. Also have written a book, Anthony. It's-- I also mentioned trust there. it's one of the ideas I explore in my book that trust becomes more valuable as AI makes execution and content creation easier. Now, do you think that verification will increasingly become a part of the brand experience itself?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 11:16

It's really, really boring. Like, no, I hope not, right? Like the, the least that we show up the better. and I think that it's just like, you know, the, the applications of it is cool. Like I, I wanna create a dating app that's only for people who are like six five, right? there's really interesting things that you can do that I don't think that people have really built and kind of nailed onto yet. But like being able to do cool things and build on top

Enterprise Value Beyond Web3 Novelty

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 11:40

of that is the interesting part. the cool part isn't verification, it's what you can build off of that verification, right?

Joeri Billast 11:47

Yeah. Makes sense, of

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 11:49

Like imagine if we gave, every person who's named Anthony Anzalone, who's six foot two, who makes over $40,000 a year, five dollars, right? Like this, you can't get that anywhere else. Like, and of course I'm being, I wish I was six foot two and, you know. but you know, there's a lot of things where it's like the granularity that you can finally get, and I think a lot of people don't know this, is what's cool. I mean, it's boring, but what you can do off of that is pretty cool

Joeri Billast 12:19

Yeah, once, it is there, we mentioned trust already. with my community, we explore also how companies can use AI more aggressively, but, without weakening then the human trust.

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 12:29

Mhm

Joeri Billast 12:30

And then I would ask you, as AI agents increasingly interact with customers and businesses, who ultimately owns the trust relationship when an agent acts on someone's behalf?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 12:43

it'll be the user, right? I think that's, really important is that everything needs to be opt-in and not opt-out, right? whenever a user's data is paid for, first of all, it needs to be by their permission, but second of all, they need to be paid for it. And I think that that's a really important part, of the future that we're building, which is I'm not just trying to give data away to a data broker. It's like it needs to be to the ethos, otherwise the scale that we want is just never going to happen

Joeri Billast 13:06

Yeah. Now, Anthony, you've raised $36 million.

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 13:11

Mhm

Joeri Billast 13:12

congratulations for that. And you built through several evolutions of the Web3 market. Now, what have you learned about distinguishing between staying committed to a long-term vision and recognizing that the market is pointing you towards a bigger opportunity?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 13:32

I mean, I think they, what's the old saying, stay stubborn on the vision, but flexible on the details. And it's easy for me, right? Like, I don't know about other people, but, the vision

Verification Should Stay Invisible

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 13:40

has been easy and I think people working in crypto, we've had this very shared vision of a future that works and things that we can do. And so it's like, did I see AI popping off as like one of the major use cases? No. Right? but here we are to build for it because it brings us to that next use case

Joeri Billast 13:58

Yeah. I love, you know, your vision, also the way that, you know, you pivot if you're a business owner, you know, the world's changing so fast. I always like to ask, you know, people on my podcast about what is coming next, of course,

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:12

Mhm

Joeri Billast 14:12

Verona succeeds

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:15

When?

Joeri Billast 14:16

in making

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:17

When? Not if. Not, not if. When?

Joeri Billast 14:20

when... I

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:21

Thank you.

Joeri Billast 14:22

let me just finish the question. So

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:24

I

Joeri Billast 14:26

it's a good one. I love that that's also, you know, the energy, and I love this also in your answers, you know. you really, spot on, you know, because my listeners probably don't know that, but, you know, Antony's... they didn't know what I was going to ask, and he's really spot on directly. Now, when succeeds in

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 14:44

Thank you

Joeri Billast 14:44

portable, private, and information a native layer for AI, what will the internet look like five years from now that feels fundamentally different from the internet we use today?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 15:00

Yeah, I think, hopefully not that different. I am, you know, quite honestly, like I, I, I, most people don't want to change.

Opt-In Data And Who Owns Trust

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 15:10

I think like the, the thing that's just different is, the thing that's just different is I know that I'm talking to a human at the other end, and I have more peace of mind that either the information that I'm reading or the person that I'm talking to, is real and I'm not gonna get scammed or what I'm doing is not fraud. I think it's just like that little change in peace of mind the other end of that is like the internet has like a very high likelihood of just going into a place that's just awful to be on, like AI slop everywhere. It's just, really boring, terrible, like s- you can't get real information. And like I think hopefully we don't get there, right? So in, in a way it's kind of preventative on that. But then also just in a way it's, it's a little different in the way that we just kind of go, we kind of steer very gently into a more positive direction where the internet is used and you can connect on people online and, you know, you can believe the things that you see on the internet and it's not, you know, rather than being not AI slop, right? And I think that's like, there's like a bad vision in the future that I, that is far, like it's a far difference, but you know, you make like a slight deviation now that has very massive implications for the future

Joeri Billast 16:24

Yeah. I love this message at the end, of this podcast episode. Now, Anthony or Bernd, if people, want to learn more, about you and what you are building, with Verona, where would you like me to send them?

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 16:39

Send them to verona.dev. we just actually launched our new website. if you want, so verona.dev for the crypto people,

A Better Internet With Less AI Slop

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 16:45

burnt.com for more of the enterprise verification aspect of things. follow us on Twitter. I'm probably mo-most active on Twitter, and, you know, if you, if you read the news, you'll see us there too, so

Joeri Billast 16:56

Yeah. As my listeners know, Anthony, there is always a blog article show notes that will be found, on the usual place. I will also put all links that Anthony mentioned in there. So if you want to read it back, go there. so yeah, Anthony, it was really a pleasure to have you on the show. Very insightful

Anthony Anzalone (Burnt Banksy) 17:15

Thank you. Yeah, It was amazing being on. I appreciate the very thoughtful questions as well. It was a very good conversation

Joeri Billast 17:21

Guys, what an insightful conversation. A lot of information, a lot of knowledge bombs that Anthony dropped. you know people around you, and I'm sure you know in these days today of AI, that could also benefit from listening to this episode, be sure to share this episode with them. If you're not yet subscribed to this show, I would say this is a really good moment to do that with the subscribe button. If you haven't given me a review yet, if you give me these five stars, this really goes a long way. And of course, love to see you back next time. Take care PS I also want to give

Links, Sharing, Reviews, And Sponsor

Joeri Billast 17:55

a shout-out to RYO, my main podcast sponsor. They launched a virtual hackathon and you can find out more on their socials