Welcome and The Big Question

Tim Soulo 0:00

I'm saying that, vibe coding and the AI did to marketers, what a spider bite did to Peter Parker.

Joeri Billast 0:07

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Web3 CMO Stories podcast. My name is Joeri Billast. I'm your podcast host, and today I'm really excited to be joined by Tim. Hey, Tim. How are you?

Tim Soulo 0:19

Hey, Joeri. Thanks for having me

Joeri Billast 0:22

really excited for this conversation, I'm speaking with Tim Soulo. He's the CMO at Ahrefs and the author of Discoverable, which is planned to be released in November, if I'm not mistaken. Tim, as my listeners know, I always like to dive straight in, I saw on your LinkedIn, you joined Ahrefs when it was, a relatively small company, And you helped it grow into a 150 million plus, ARR business. So looking back, what did you believe about marketing back then that you don't believe anymore today?

Tim Soulo 0:58

Oh, There's a lot of stuff because, when I just joined the company, I didn't have much experience in marketing to start with. I didn't have, any knowledge of a CMO or, like, how to

Early Marketing Beliefs That Broke

Tim Soulo 1:10

help SaaS business grow, so I figured it out as I went. And in the process, I had to test a lot of conventional knowledge, a lot of, marketing strategies that were popular at the time. some of them worked, some of them didn't. eventually I developed, a set of my marketing principles that, I think will stand the test of time. I think they didn't change in the past, 10 years that I've been doing marketing, and I'm already seeing how they are surviving the AI apocalypse. as you mentioned, I wrote a book about this. I actually just received the first author copy, from the printers. it's called Discoverable. It would be out, in, November. And yeah, I'm super excited because I originally was telling everyone that it took me two years to write this book, but then I opened the Google document, which I started when I was putting my ideas and brainstorming the angles and titles for the book, and the document is actually four years old. So, like, from coming up with an idea to write a book and starting collecting, ideas, stories, information, and up to receiving the hard copy in the mail, it took me four years, which is quite crazy

Joeri Billast 2:25

my first book took three years. My second book actually took, two months. Now, Ahrefs

Tim Soulo 2:31

ahrefs

Joeri Billast 2:33

Okay, Ahrefs

Tim Soulo 2:34

That's a common thing. You shouldn't cut this out. that's a common thing. People always ma- make fun of our pronunciation

Writing Discoverable Over Four Years

Joeri Billast 2:40

Ahrefs. Yeah, I never heard it like that actually. So, Ahrefs grew without VC funding for years without outbound sales. So what did that force you to understand about demand and brand building that companies with large sales and advertising budgets sometimes never learn?

Tim Soulo 3:02

I wouldn't say that I was forced to understand something. I just didn't know that companies can grow with outbound. I didn't realize that you can pinpoint, your ideal customers, you can stalk them on LinkedIn, you can send them emails, you can invite them to dinners I didn't know that this is a possibility because when I joined the company, there were 16 people, like the entire team was 16 people, I was the only marketer. We didn't have, any salespeople, just engineers and product people. And, I just couldn't spend my time going on dinners or stalking people on LinkedIn and inviting them to sales calls. And then again, sales calls with who? Like, with me. I would be a marketer, I would be a salesperson, SDR, BDR, everything. So I needed to do things that scale. I was the only person, and I needed to do things that would bring me not dozens of customers per month, but hundreds, better yet, thousands. So for example, as of today, over 20,000 people sign up for Ahrefs every single week. a lot of these signups are kind of people canceling and then returning. Some of the signups are people, getting more users within their plan and inviting. But still, the total number of new signups per week is 20,000, and you don't get there with outbound. You need to do marketing. You need to make people discover you rather than you going after your clients. You need to make sure that anyone who has the kind of problem that you're solving, that they can find you. this is the central idea of my book. There are only three ways how people discover products and businesses. One of them is search, which has been our bread and butter at Ahrefs for the entire time, because Ahrefs started as an SEO tool for search engine optimization. But today, search is a lot more than just Google. It is ChatGPT, it is TikTok, it is YouTube. People use all sorts of tools and platforms and AI assistants to do their searches, and you need to be there. You need to show up in those searches, because if they have

Scaling Ahrefs Without Outbound Sales

Tim Soulo 5:20

a problem and they search for it, if you're not showing up, your competitors are, and they're getting all those clients. The second way how people discover products and businesses is they simply notice them. You're minding your own business, you're scrolling your Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn, and something pops into your attention. How can it pop into your attention? It's either advertising, which is one of the very fundamental things that marketers do, you just advertise, or you create the kind of content that gets spread organically. So you publish a YouTube video, it performs very well, and in that video, you talk about your business, about your product, and people learn about it this way. So they notice your video because it was good or because you advertise it And the third way how people discover products and businesses is through recommendations. So this is word of mouth. This is when your happy customers or people who know you and respect you or they have learned something from you, they pass on the knowledge to someone else. And again, simple, simple framework of, how to make people talk about you. There are kind of two psychological reasons why people would talk about you. First of all, they want to brag. Like, "Oh, like I'm using this product, I'm getting these good results. Look at me, like my website's getting a lot of traffic. I'm getting a lot of clients. You should also use this service." So they just want to brag about how successful they are. Or they want to be useful. So they have a friend who is not doing well with something, and they want to help him. So these are kind of the two primary motivators

Three Ways People Discover Brands

Tim Soulo 6:55

for people to talk about things. Either they want to brag, "Look at my shoes, look at my motorcycle," whatever, like, or, "Look at how, like I'm solving business problems with this tool." Or, "You have a problem? I actually know how to solve it. Like my friend tried this software." I might not even use the software or product myself, but if I know from somewhere else that the product is useful, if I have like validation for it, I want to pass on this knowledge. So these are some of the things that I'm discussing with the book, like the fundamental principles of how to make your business discoverable

Joeri Billast 7:29

Yeah. But I love that actually. So when I wrote my first book, "The 5K Challenge," I also mentioned why do people share your post, It's because it makes them look good or indeed, you know, there is a solution to a problem that people might have. Now, I love that you mentioned the fundamentals. we have a common friend, Mark Schaefer,

Tim Soulo 7:46

Hmm.

Joeri Billast 7:47

and

Tim Soulo 7:48

book on your shelf, Audacious.

Joeri Billast 7:50

see

Tim Soulo 7:50

a good book

Joeri Billast 7:51

I was also one of the authors of the, the most amazing marketing book ever, actually. I was, I am one of the co-authors, and actually, he also was the person that give me, the boost to write my latest book. I know that Mark, spoke at, Ahrefs Evolve, on your event, And you mentioned it, I think, in one of your LinkedIn posts precisely because it was not about SEO or prompts or citations, but it was about fundamental marketing principles. why do marketers keep gravitating towards tactics when the fundamentals are often where the real advantage lies, you think?

Tim Soulo 8:27

there are multiple reasons to that. one of the reasons is specialization. So as marketing organization starts growing, you need people who don't just look at marketing holistically, but who need to specialize. For example, I don't have a lot of knowledge in how to run Facebook ads or how to run Google ads, how to configure campaigns, I don't have this knowledge. I know just general information of how it works, but I don't have specialized knowledge. But I have people on my team who take care of that. So basically, my book with fundamentals is for people who are kind of aspiring to be leaders, who need to understand the holistic view of everything rather than going deep on any discipline. But, in the early days, you still, cannot start your job as a leader, typically. you need to grow in your ranks and understand how, all the bits and pieces work together. And this is when you need to be a specialist, and this is when you need to have some specialist knowledge. And this is why people kind of get carried away with, very specific tactics, because this is just their role. And there is nothing wrong about it, because when I was also starting out at Ahrefs, and we needed to do a lot of SEO, I was also very deep in the very specific tactics of SEO, how to pick keywords in the right way, how to build backlinks, how to create content to address those keywords, et cetera, So it's quite natural. But then as my team grew, I needed a more holistic understanding of marketing to be able to lead this team

Joeri Billast 9:57

Yeah. you mentioned the content and, and le- let's talk about what's, to something you said about AI, use cases. I think you said that AI use cases in marketing are not particularly good, I think most of them. What are marketers fundamentally misunderstanding about where AI creates the value?

Tim Soulo 10:18

Yeah, I was skeptical about AI for a very, very long time, because, while a lot of people were kind of seeing the potential and looking into the future, I had a more conservative look and I was like, "No, guys. First I need to see it actually do something cool, and then I would be a believer." And, in this last year or maybe two years, AI has advanced a lot. So I transformed from AI skeptic to AI believer, AI advocate essentially. I use AI all the time in my work. Like, there's a lot of use cases. one of the most common use cases of AI for anyone is actually coding or as they say vibe coding. Because as marketers, we typically have a lot of ideas. We have ideas for landing pages, we have ideas for tools, we have ideas for products, for campaigns, Like, what to do with data. A lot of ideas are coming from the marketing department. But you don't necessarily have the skill, so if you have an interesting tool that you want to build, you don't have the coding skill to build it, and you don't have the time to do it. But now with AI You can just do it. Like, the first tool that I built with AI, and at first I thought it wouldn't be possible, and it turned out it would be, it was, I built a simple tracker of LinkedIn audience, of different people. So I, like, I saw that my audience on LinkedIn is growing, but I didn't know how fast. So I didn't want to track in a spreadsheet, like, how many new followers I'm adding in a week, and especially I didn't want to do it for some other people in the industry because I wanted some benchmarks. I wanted to understand, are some other people in my industry who are also, like, posting on LinkedIn, are they growing their following faster than me or slower than me? And are they posting more than me, or are they posting less? Are they getting more engagements or less engagements? I need a benchmark to understand how well I am doing because I don't get this in isolation when I just look at my performance. So originally, I actually I hired someone on Upwork to start building this tool for me just for my personal use. I wasted maybe $5,000. And then while I was in the process of working on this very simple tool with this person, AI got so good that you could just build this thing with a few prompts. And right now, AI at the stage where you can just take a link URL of my tool, you can feed it to AI

Why Tactics Beat Fundamentals

Tim Soulo 12:50

and say, like, "Build it for me." And it would one shot. You don't have to provide any instructions. AI would essentially figure out everything it needs to build this kind of tool. So it's crazy how good it is. You just need to have, good ideas of what to build. I'm saying that, vibe coding and the AI did to marketers, what a spider bite did to Peter Parker. It turned us into,

Joeri Billast 13:14

Yeah. Indeed, I think you, you've written that AI can increase productivity enormously, and you mentioned ideas. You need ideas, taste, personality, and effort, of course, to determine, whether the marketing is actually good. do you think is-- which one of those is the most valuable, as AI capa-capabilities become commoditized, everything becomes better and better?

Tim Soulo 13:37

Yeah, I recently posted that, AI multiplied by zero effort equals slop, and AI multiplied by maximum effort equals gold. So one of the most common ways that people misuse AI is they think that they should avoid effort, which is actually true for vibe coding, because when I ask AI to build something for me, it avoids all the effort of writing all the code. But the thing is, I just need an application. but when you apply the same thing for creating content that should get you noticed, one of the way to get noticed is to create content that would spread naturally, and people say, write me a good article about this," or, "Turn my article into a LinkedIn post," and they publish it as is, avoiding all the effort of actually making it great, and this just doesn't work. Because what people notice, and to get noticed is one of the fundamental principles of being discoverable, what people notice is effort. If I see that you didn't put in any effort into what you're doing, I'm not interested in that. So this is why I'm saying that with my book Discoverable, it took me four years to write it, I started collecting ideas four years ago. It wasn't a simple, fast process. And even more than that, because I was tracking all my progress with AI, and it has like all the revisions and everything, I asked AI, "Okay, look at all the notes, all the stories and the ideas that didn't make it to the book, but are still in our kind of, separate folders." And it said, "Oh, like you actually wrote two books, but shipped one." Because the total word count of everything I wrote was over 100,000 words, and I shipped right around 55,000 words or something. So I cut all the content that I've produced in half. this is effort. And I would imagine that this is why people would want to read my book, that there's a lot of effort into it. if I would say that, I've been doing my podcast for a year. I interviewed 60 people. I used AI to turn it into a book. Go read it. I don't think anyone would be interested to read it, because they would understand that it's slop. Even though there's work in interviewing 60 people, the fact that I simply asked AI, "Turn those 60 interviews into a book," and it did it like in two hours and they shipped the book, that's not effort, and that's not noticeable. That's not something people would pay attention to.

Joeri Billast 16:19

But that's interesting because, I did something in between. I would say my first book took, so many years to write it, to rewrite it, to change the language, to restructure that. And then my last book, because building the podcast was effort, more than 300 episodes, I have a lot of content in there, and I have my keynote, and then I asked AI to use, the podcast episodes as a, I would say,

Tim Soulo 16:42

you did. Interesting.

Joeri Billast 16:44

as examples to support the keynote that I gave. So I said, "These are the ideas that I see. AI, do you see patterns or do you agree with that?" So this was not AI writing the book, but

Vibe Coding and Marketer Superpowers

Joeri Billast 16:55

it supported me to add content where it would make sense. and the interesting thing was, that I sent it to Philip Kotler, you know, the guy who popularized, the four Ps in marketing, and he said it was the best thing he ever read about CMOs. So I said, "Okay," so this, there is a way to make it work between, doing, having AI doing everything with zero effort and putting a lot of work, and then going there in between. I could not do this three years ago, but now, with the possibilities of AI, and if you are, working together with them, it could work. But that's just, to have like, an contrarian opinion.

Tim Soulo 17:31

I don't think it's contrarian because I didn't say that I didn't use AI to write my book. I used AI profusely, and I kind of did the same thing as you did. For example, I interviewed someone and I don't really remember their story exactly. So I would ask AI, "Go search the transcript, find this story, write it in a few paragraphs for me." So yeah, I don't want to re-listen to the entire interview. I don't want to change the words into a story. I can have AI do this for me. But still, how much effort is in the book? How many hours you spent polishing your ideas? how much time you spent collecting your ideas? these are different things. Because like I said, if what I did, if I'm true with people who are buying my book and I tell them, "Listen, this book is simply 50 podcast episodes rewritten by AI into a book. I didn't touch it. I didn't even read it myself," No one would buy it. But if I tell them, "Guys, I was working on this for four years. Yeah, I used AI to pull things here and there, but like I read my own book maybe 15 times, maybe more, to polish like every freaking sentence, to obsess about like everything," people would want to read it because they understand, like I've put in effort. It's also like it's one of the concepts that I'm discussing in the book. it's a form of signaling. because why do peacocks have this huge tail?

Joeri Billast 18:57

Mm-hmm.

Tim Soulo 18:57

This is signaling, "I am so fit, I am so well fed that I can get around with this unwieldy, completely unnecessary thing under my back." This is signaling. Like, it's the same like my effort into the book. I'm putting it because I'm signaling that this is good work. I know that it is good. I'm willing to invest effort into it. So effort, I still think that effort is what sells. It's what gets you noticed. It what gets you respect

Joeri Billast 19:28

Yeah. I think it's good to put effort indeed in the right place, you know, where, you need the human, effort,

Tim Soulo 19:34

Of course. Yeah. Yeah

Joeri Billast 19:35

the value and the things that is actually, just spending time having AI do. So I think we agree upon that, but it's interesting writing a book. It's an adventure and you find out, things along as you go, now I have a few other interesting questions for you. a lot of marketers are, currently measuring AI visibility, citations, mentions, but being cited is not necessarily the same as being recommended. What would make you believe a brand that is generally winning in AI, driven discovery?

Tim Soulo 20:05

so yeah, there is a lot of holy wars happening on LinkedIn on the topic of AI visibility, which prompts you have to track, what kind of prompts you have to track, how many, how often should you check them? Should you check them across all models or just a few models? Should you track them via API or, like, logged, There, there's so many options, it's kind of crazy, and people keep bickering about it. My perspective is that you should track your success in AI search more holistically. And when I'm saying more holistically, there are more indicators that you're performing well in AI search rather than whatever AI visibility tools are telling you. And I'm one of the people behind one of these AI visibility tools, actually. So I'm kind of, in a way, shooting myself in the foot. But so what are those things? First of all, referral traffic from AI chatbots. You know if ChatGPT is sending you traffic or not. that's objective. And you know if this traffic is going up month to month or if it is going down or if it's not changing. It is very easy to measure. Every analytics tool, our own free web analytics tool, every analytics tool will show you. Second thing, visits from AI bots. So whenever AI needs to pull information from your page, AI bot has to visit your page. So again, at Ahrefs we have bot analytics, but there are many other bot analytics systems that you can install, and you can see if AI bots from, like, OpenAI, Claude, et cetera, if they're visiting the pages of your website and which pages they're visiting and how often. Because this is a good indication that your pages are getting considered Next, self-attribution. If people are saying that, "I found you in ChatGPT, I found you in Claude," you can have a simple form, how did you hear about us? People will leave feedbacks. You can cross-reference it. Is it exact science? No. Like, people are prone to a lot of biases when they're, leaving those feedbacks. They might just not care and just write ChatGPT while they actually found you in ads. That doesn't matter. Still, you would notice trends. if your traffic from AI chatbots is going up, if the bot visits are going up, and you also see the same thing in your self-attribution, then it has to be correct. And again, sales calls. if you are in a company that does a lot of sales calls, and your salespeople are asking people, "How did you heard about us?" And they're like, "Oh, you're all over ChatGPT. Whenever I ask about my problem, you always show up," you can easily track that. And finally, on top of this, you have AI visibility, where you work on figuring out what would be a great, objective, unbiased list of prompts

Effort Signaling and Avoiding AI Slop

Tim Soulo 22:55

that you want to track, and there are, like, a lot of methodologies on, how to do it. We teach some of that on our blog. You set it up, and again, it's not about the actual number. Like, what is it today, your AI visibility is 7.5% or 15.3%? I don't care. Tell me how it progresses month to month. If it was 5% yesterday, will it be 6% tomorrow? And what is it for my competitors? Do they have more visibility than... So the actual numbers are not as relevant as the trends and comparisons to your competitors. So this is how I'm thinking of AI search. And finally, the most important thing is that AI search is essentially a reflection of the web. Because, like, today, AI is pulling their citations from these websites. Tomorrow, they're pulling from somewhere else. At some point, Reddit was, the source where AI pulled a lot of information. Then it dropped, in its visibility. Then YouTube, then LinkedIn. It changes all the time because those AI systems are adapting. What doesn't change is that they get information from reputable sources around the web. So what you need to do, you need to track your mentions on the reputable sources around the web. Again, Ahrefs has tools for that, which is why I think we're super well-positioned, in this new, AI world. But in addition to everything that I just discussed, the actual source of what AI says about you is the internet. So you need to map what the internet says about you and control that. So basically, whenever someone publishes an article on a reputable website and they make a mistake about, for example, your pricing, which literally happened to us. We made a mistake when we released our new product. Our pricing was kind of convoluted. It was a little bit hard to figure out. And some people, when they published articles, they made false statements, not because they wanted to harm us, but because they misunderstood. And then we had to go around, reach out to these people, and ask them to fix because they misunderstood our pricing

Joeri Billast 25:48

Yeah, it's interesting. we have another person that we know in common, Andy Crestodina. He was on my podcast not so long ago, and he recently mentioned that your AI traffic research, he's also a numbers guy, when we discussed how AI is changing buyer intent. So you already explained a bit, but do you think AI is simply becoming another discovery channel, or is it really fundamentally changing how people evaluate and choose brands?

Tim Soulo 26:18

To be honest, I struggle to answer this because I think people were using Google in a very similar way. People were using YouTube in a very similar way. So you are choosing a backpack for hiking. You go to Google, you read a bunch of reviews. Those reviews help you shape your perspective of what a good backpack for hiking looks like. Or you go to YouTube, someone has like 10 backpacks. They show them to you, they review, they like put stuff in it to show you how convenient it is. You make up your mind. Maybe what is happening is that with AI, people get a little lazier and they want to skip some of that research work. But I would argue that they only do it when the decision is not high stakes for them So if you don't really care that you're buying the best product or you don't really care that you're getting the best deal then you might just go for whatever AI is offering you. But when you have some high stakes product that, for example, your entire company would depend on, then you would still have to do a lot of research even with AI. You will be asking a lot of additional questions. If it would say that people on Reddit are saying this, you would actually go and review those Reddit threads yourself. So you would still do a lot of work, and I'm not seeing how it is different to what people were doing before. And finally, I also have a very interesting take in regards to shopping with AI, because a lot of people are saying that AI would do all the shopping for us. I again disagree with this. So first of all, there are like low stakes decision and there are high stakes decision. And for high stakes decision, you cannot just delegate it to AI because, you are responsible But then there are things, like a lot of people like shopping. A lot of people like the whole process of studying different products, how they're different, making this decision. So shopping is in many ways a pleasurable activity. And for example, if, my wife wants to get herself a new dress, and she wants to go to the shops, she wants to, try them on, she wants to take pictures, send to me, send to her girlfriends. It's a whole kind of activity that she enjoys doing. Why would she say to AI, "I have, someone's birthday coming up and they want to do, like, I don't know, white party. Get me some trendy white dress. I don't care what it is." So there, there's a lot of nuance to how AI is going to reshape, our habits and our activities.

Joeri Billast 29:05

Yeah. We are coming towards the end of the podcast

How To Measure AI Search Wins

Joeri Billast 29:08

episode, but I've, another question about your book, Tim. One idea in Discoverable that I found particularly interesting is getting found, getting noticed, and getting talked about. for an entrepreneur with limited resources, how do you decide which of those, deserves attention first?

Tim Soulo 29:29

Yeah, I actually have a framework in my book for making marketing decisions, the framework is called Brew, B-R-E-W, where B stands for business potential, which is essentially how likely is the person to become your customer, to purchase your product after they consume a piece of content that you're giving them. So if you published an article, how likely is a person to purchase your product after reading an article? So that's business potential. The second in Brew is reach. R stands for reach. So how many people are you going to reach with that piece of content? in my book I made an example of, case studies, which is, my common argument with my marketing team. They want to do more case studies, and I'm like, "But how are we going to get people to see those case studies?" Case studies seems like a sales tool. So when a salesperson is on a call with someone, they would show them, "Oh, we have these clients, they're reaching these results," or maybe you just feature like one or two case studies on your homepage, but why do you need more? What is the reach? How are people going It's not a YouTube video that you publish, and it has the potential to get thousands of views. No one cares about case studies. So the second is reach. Business potential, reach, and then E stands for effort. How hard it would be, because if something has like high business potential, it can sell your product well. And then like you can publish it on YouTube and create a great video, and that great video would go viral and get a lot of eyes on your product and people would want to buy it. What's the effort? If the effort is doing what MrBeast is doing, buying some Ferraris, crashing them to get millions of views, and at the same time show your product, for example, you have Your business is fixing Ferraris. So you want to smash a bunch of Ferraris and then restore them, and like promote your business, like how good you are at restoring cars. It's a lot of effort to do a video like that and to make it go viral. It's, it's crazy hard. And finally, the, the final letter in the Brew is W. Who is going to do it? Because you might have an idea that has high business potential. You might have a distribution plan of how to get reach. You might even be okay with the effort and resources required to pull this off. But then like who is going to do it? Do you have bandwidth on your, on your team, or do you have person on your team who is good with YouTube? As simple as that. Do, does someone on your team have, experience with YouTube? you can kind of partly solve it with hiring someone like an agency, and it would solve a whole problem for you. But basically, that's the framework. Whenever you're making a marketing decision, you need to understand how well it would sell your product, how many people you're going to reach, how much effort that would require, and who exactly is going to do this. So this is the framework I use, in my marketing to make decisions.

Joeri Billast 32:19

Right. Sounds really interesting. and people listening to this episode, if they are triggered, by your framework Tim, where would you like me to send them? Where can they find the book? Where can they find Ahrefs

Tim Soulo 32:30

the book should be already on Amazon, so people can pre-order it on Amazon or they can come to

BREW Framework and Where To Start

Tim Soulo 32:38

one of the conferences that we are sponsoring or to our conference, Ahrefs, because we'll be giving out a lot of these books for free. Because I didn't write this book to make money. I wrote this book to share my 15 years of marketing knowledge and the principles that I developed along the way. And yeah, basically the book is relatively short. It's just, like, 220 pages, so it's about three hour read. And if you want to spend three hours with my best thinking about marketing, with my best ideas, get the book. I honestly cannot see how you would read it and not get at least 10 cool ideas for your business

Joeri Billast 33:19

That four years actually summarized in 10 good ideas for the business. Who wouldn't want that, Tim? So Tim, thanks, thanks so much for joining me today. It was a really insight conversation. Thank you

Tim Soulo 33:33

Thanks for having me, Joeri

Joeri Billast 33:35

Guys, what a brilliant episode. it sparked some ideas. obviously already had a look at Tim's book. It's really good. So go ahead and find it on Amazon. Let me know what you think about it. I will put all links in the show notes as always. if you think that it's also useful for people around you, this podcast episode, Tim's book, be sure

Where To Get The Book

Joeri Billast 33:58

to share it with them. If you are not yet following this show, hit the subscribe button because this is a really good moment to do this. If you haven't given me a review yet, if you give me these five stars, this really goes a long way, and of course, would love to see you back next time. Take care a special thanks as well to RYO, uh, the main sponsor of Web3 CMO Stories, supporting conversations at the intersection of Web3 AI and the future of digital leadership.